1 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE 2 HISTORIC PRESERVATION 3 COMMISSION 4 5 6 Proceedings held on Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 7 commencing at 3:06 p.m., Ed Ball Building, 214 North 8 Hogan Street, 8th Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before 9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of 10 Florida at Large. 11 12 PRESENT: 13 DAVID B. CASE, Chair. RICHARD MOORE, JR., Vice Chair. 14 ANGELA SCHIFANELLA, Secretary. JOSEPH F. THOMPSON, Commission Member. 15 LISA SIMON, Commission Member. JENNIFER MANSFIELD, Commission Member. 16 JOHN ALLMAND, Commission Member. 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 JOEL McEACHIN, Planning and Development Dept. SAMANTHA PAULL, Planning and Dev Dept. 19 LISA SHEPPARD, Planning and Development Dept. AUTUMN MARTINAGE, Planning and Dev Dept. 20 SCHERRIE REED, Planning and Development Dept. 21 - - - 22 23 24 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 February 23, 2011 3:06 p.m. 3 - - - 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome to the 5 February 23rd meeting of the Jacksonville 6 Historic Preservation Commission. 7 Any of those who would like to speak at 8 today's meeting will need to fill out a blue 9 card. If you haven't done so, please do so. 10 I would also ask you at this time, if you 11 could put your cell phones on silent or 12 vibrate, we would deeply appreciate it, and if 13 you could hold any private conversations 14 outside the room so it is not picked up by the 15 court reporter. 16 At this time, I would like to verify our 17 quorum. We have commissioners present, Moore, 18 Schifanella, Thompson, Case, Allmand, 19 Mansfield, and Simon. 20 At this time, I would introduce a motion 21 for the acceptance of the minutes. 22 MR. THOMPSON: I move we accept the 23 minutes. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 25 MR. MOORE: Second. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 3 1 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, aye. 2 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 4 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have 6 approved the minutes of January 26th, 2011. 7 The first item will be deferred items. 8 There are only two items that are being 9 deferred tonight. The third one is an error. 10 Those items being deferred are COA-11-067, 11 26 West 7th Street, and COA-11-071 at 618 12 Stockton Street. COA-11-077 is not deferred 13 and will be heard under the regular 14 certificates of appropriateness. 15 At this time, we'll move on to the consent 16 agenda. We have two items on the consent 17 agenda today: COA-11-048, 1052 Cherry Street, 18 and COA-11-070. Do any commissioners -- would 19 any commissioners like to pull any of these two 20 items? 21 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, seeing none, 23 I'll entertain a motion for the approval of the 24 consent agenda. 25 MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I move that we Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 4 1 approve the consent agenda. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do I hear a second? 3 MS. MANSFIELD: Second. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second. 5 All those in favor. 6 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 8 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have 10 approved consent agenda items COA-11-048 and 11 COA-11-070. 12 At this time, we will move on to condemned 13 properties, 1325 North Laura Street. 14 MR. McEACHIN: Just to give you some 15 background real quick, this was placed on the 16 agenda at the request of the Municipal Code 17 Enforcement Division. It was on the agenda for 18 the last meeting, the January meeting, and the 19 director of the Department, Mr. Killingsworth, 20 requested that it be deferred. He was under 21 the impression that these items -- not unless 22 these are emergency actions, were not going to 23 go back to the commission, and -- but he wanted 24 to talk to Kim Scott, who's chief of that 25 division, to discuss this issue with her. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 5 1 As far as I know, he -- either he has not 2 discussed it or he's not gotten back with me, 3 so it's still on the agenda and here it is 4 before you today. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 6 (Ms. Lancaster approaches the podium.) 7 MS. LANCASTER: Good afternoon. 8 My name is Elaine Lancaster. I am a 9 supervisor with the Municipal Code Compliance 10 Division. I am the representative for 11 Chief Scott. 12 And, no, Joel, we did not hear anything 13 from Mr. Killingsworth. That's why we're 14 actually presenting the case. We deferred it 15 because he -- from my understanding, 16 Mr. Killingsworth wanted to be here last month, 17 so it had been deferred. 18 I put together packets for you, each one 19 of you have a set, starting with 20 Chapter 518.111, describing what an -- unsafe 21 structure definitions are. 22 I also took these pictures (indicating) 23 when we were coming in to -- I thought we were 24 going to come to last month's meeting, so I 25 have those, and we -- I gave my PowerPoint to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 6 1 Joel; however, I gave two additional pictures 2 today. I went by this morning, so I did not 3 get a chance to put them on there, and I would 4 like to describe those pictures to you. 5 The first set of pictures you're going to 6 see, the very top picture where you're seeing 7 an opening in the roof -- Joel, can you back up 8 a couple of those pictures for me? 9 No. To mine. Go -- okay. Go one more. 10 I'm trying to get the front of the house. 11 Okay. Back up one. 12 Okay. Where you're seeing that hole in 13 that roof, it was not there in this set of 14 pictures, and there's another one that will 15 show you the roof line. However, going there 16 today, part of that sheathing has now totally 17 peeled away and is close proximity it is to 18 that adjacent house, which is Ms. Palmer's 19 house, and she's here to speak on it. There's 20 no way that it probably did not hit her house. 21 So that's how close to proximity it is 22 now, making another opening into the roof line 23 beside just where the chimney is. And there's 24 some other pictures that Joel can show you 25 where the sheathing is beveled -- that's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 7 1 actually (indicating) -- was flapping this 2 morning. It was actually moving, we could see 3 it and witness it. 4 And the second picture I gave you is of 5 the back of the house where now you actually 6 got start -- parts of it starting to dislodge. 7 Under our ordinance -- we actually had 8 this case -- it's actually a 2002 case. That 9 was started on May 29th, 2002. We allowed it 10 to actually, back then -- before the ordinance 11 had changed, it -- we actually allowed 36 12 months for these houses to set, in which it 13 did, and then we actually met with the property 14 owner and signed into a stipulation agreement 15 in 2005, when the economy was not as bad as it 16 is now, and I understand that. 17 At that point, the owner was granted 360 18 days to do the repairs and start working on the 19 house, which he did go inside, and that's how 20 the house got gutted, but did no further work 21 than that. 22 In 2007, we actually went ahead and 23 carried it through the Special Master process 24 because the house is not in the -- in the 25 condition it is today. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 8 1 At the Special Master first hearing, the 2 Special Master granted the owner's contractor 3 another 180 days to go forward on the 4 restoration of the house. 5 And then, again, after that, back in 2008, 6 going back to the Special Master, he granted 7 another 180 days. That was in January of 2008. 8 In September of 2008, we went back into 9 the Special Master process, where the Special 10 Master -- which is the last part of your packet 11 here, which -- at the request of OGC, we 12 provide -- is the order to abate violations by 13 demolition. That was signed on by the Special 14 Master. 15 Now, even when the Special Master actually 16 deems it and signs the order to abate, the last 17 result is always at the discretion of the 18 chief. And, at that time, Chief Scott decided 19 that we would not even process it and continue 20 to let it stay due to the structural integrity 21 of the house, was still in good shape, at -- 22 even at that time. 23 Here recently, by watching the house, 24 and -- end of last year, that's when we 25 actually started seeing where the roof Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 9 1 damage -- you don't -- see if Joel will show 2 you some of the pictures I got. 3 On the back of the house, you're actually 4 seeing the support beam that's giving. And the 5 pier right there (indicating), that actually is 6 going right to the adjacent property, which is 7 Ms. Palmer's property, and it's starting to 8 buckle there and sag, so that is a concern that 9 we have. 10 The other part is that the roof and -- and 11 some of -- dislodging, which is some of the 12 recent pictures that I showed today. 13 We also have it -- you know, it is a 14 safety and welfare issue for us, and -- and I 15 understand that the commission says that, you 16 know, they don't necessarily judge on it, but 17 our -- our chapter does, and that's one of our 18 first priorities of our division. With the 19 parts being in danger of being dislodged into 20 the elements, the public safety issue, because 21 the house is not bordered properly even at this 22 point, the shifting of the back floor, the back 23 sills and the piers. And even in one of the 24 pictures -- and I kind of -- I wish I used it 25 because -- flip through a couple more pictures, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 10 1 Joel. 2 MR. McEACHIN: (Complies.) 3 MS. LANCASTER: Is that all the pictures 4 you have? 5 MS. MARTINAGE: That's all you sent me. 6 MS. LANCASTER: You don't got all the 7 pictures. 8 I'm sorry. I'm going to have her put into 9 the thumb drive -- because the -- actually, the 10 south wall of the house too, you're -- actually 11 can see where it's tilting from the front to 12 the rear of the property where it's actually 13 collapsing and it's starting to sag itself in 14 there. 15 And I think that's the only picture that 16 you don't have, Autumn. I just want them to 17 see the difference in the levels. 18 So, at this point, the City of 19 Jacksonville is requesting, per recommendation 20 from this commission, and we are seeking a 21 recommendation to go ahead and process for 22 demolition. 23 And as the commission requested also in 24 the past about bringing the neighbors, I 25 actually did bring this neighbor that has Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 11 1 filled out a card and wishes to speak to this 2 commission. 3 MS. MANSFIELD: I had a question. 4 MS. LANCASTER: Go ahead. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: You said that there was 6 sheathing coming off? What do you mean by 7 "sheathing"? The siding -- 8 MS. LANCASTER: The metal roof, it's 9 actually -- the metal roofing is actually 10 peeling off, dislodging with the wind and all, 11 so now your open- -- have different openings in 12 the roof. It's actually falling off and 13 hitting the neighbor's property, who -- she has 14 small kids that live at the front of that house 15 too, so you're actually losing the roof. 16 You've got some -- the second picture that 17 I gave you is actually some of the siding and 18 all. It's collapsing off the back of the house 19 as well. 20 Yeah, on -- on the corner, back here on 21 this side (indicating), where the wood is, 22 that's actually tilting down and it's also 23 tilting across to that one pier, which is on 24 the right side of this picture that is the pier 25 that's actually where the wood is sagging and Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 12 1 dropping. That is the corner of the house. 2 That is our major concern, is the back of that 3 house, but what I'm saying, sheathing is the 4 metal roofing that's actually peeled off and 5 have flown off in several places. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: And has any investigation 7 been made to reattaching the -- that -- 8 MS. LANCASTER: Our division will -- 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 MS. MANSFIELD: -- on a temporary measure? 11 MS. LANCASTER: Our division does not do 12 that. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: Has any -- 14 MS. LANCASTER: I can't answer that. You 15 would have to go through -- that is -- actually 16 comes up under the historical planning 17 commission that controls that, and it wouldn't 18 be through our division. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, my understanding of 20 the ordinance code in 518 is that it allows the 21 MCC to remediate up to and including demolition 22 but doesn't actually require demolition, so I 23 was just wondering if any remediation had been 24 considered other than demolition. 25 MS. LANCASTER: Actually, I -- I'm only Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 13 1 going to tell you what I know, and I do know 2 there is negotiations with Mr. Killingsworth 3 and Ms. Scott has been talking, and it's 4 actually going to come under 307, where it's 5 only going to -- it's going to actually come up 6 under the preservation commission staff, 7 something that they're trying to set up. I 8 don't even know what it is, but under -- under 9 this division and this chief, we actually do 10 not and would not go after the repair of that 11 structure for the (inaudible) at this point. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: So you're not aware of any 13 investigation of that -- 14 MS. LANCASTER: No, ma'am. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Has any structural engineer 16 looked at this house at all? 17 MS. LANCASTER: I'm going to leave that to 18 the -- Ms. Palmer coming up here because she 19 has a statement to state on it. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 21 MS. LANCASTER: Anything else? 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 23 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 25 At this time, we'll open it to a public Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 14 1 hearing. 2 Is there anyone that would wish to speak 3 to this issue? 4 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: You'll need to state your 6 name and be sworn in. 7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Name and address and be 9 sworn in. 10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Shannon Palmer, 1331 11 North Laura Street, Jacksonville, Florida 12 32206. 13 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 14 hand for me, please. 15 MS. PALMER: (Complies.) 16 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 17 testimony you are about to give will be the 18 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 19 truth? 20 MS. PALMER: I affirm. 21 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 22 MS. PALMER: Hi. 23 Thank you very much for taking the time to 24 let me come up here and speak. 25 I have a petition with me of the neighbors Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 15 1 on the 1300 block of Laura Street who support 2 the demolition of this property, and I'd like 3 to give you that, please. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: If you give it to us, we 5 have to keep it. 6 MS. PALMER: Sure, I have a copy. 7 Thank you. 8 I also brought my own photographs. I've 9 lived at 1331 for almost six years now and I've 10 watched this house basically deteriorate. I 11 have photos dating all the way back from April 12 3rd, 2005, for you. 13 Sorry, my mic keeps going in and out. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: It does that. Don't worry 15 about it. 16 MS. PALMER: Okay. And it shows you what 17 that house looked like in 2005, and it was a 18 lovely structure. It had beautiful awnings on 19 the front, all of its window, it had a back 20 up-and-down porch, it had the siding on it. It 21 was lovely, beautiful columns in the front 22 porch. 23 I'm going to submit all of these for you. 24 I'm sorry, I didn't know I could bring a thumb 25 drive and y'all could put them up there. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 16 1 But you'll see I've made statements. And 2 from 2005 to present, you'll see how that house 3 has been neglected. All right? 4 I'm the one who has called the police over 5 the past six years because vagrants are on that 6 property. I'm the one who had to call the 7 police because someone was trying to bury 8 something about four weeks ago on that 9 property. I'm the one who goes to bed at 10 nighttime fearing that someone is going to go 11 in that house and start a fire because they 12 were cold or they were hungry, and I'm going to 13 wake up to a fire. All right. 14 None of you live there. Okay? You don't 15 have to deal with this house. I'm -- I'm 16 really -- I've tried to talk with the owner; 17 he's non-responsive. Orlando does not call you 18 back; Orlando does not respond to letters; he 19 doesn't respond to the two contractors that 20 he's had, John and Travis that I have spoken 21 to, or Justin, the maintenance guy, who 22 occasionally comes along. He doesn't do 23 anything. He owns all five properties on that 24 block, and this just happens to be the one 25 that's sitting next to my house, and I'm the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 17 1 one who has to pick up the trash. Okay? 2 So you can see where he has pulled the 3 chimneys down and left the metal roof open. 4 There's holes. Okay? He does not have the 5 windows boarded. He pulled the back porch off. 6 All right? He did not fix anything. 7 The most important ones is -- which is 8 what Ms. Elaine was talking about earlier are 9 the ones that you can see. The back set of 10 photos are directly out of my daughter's 11 bedroom window. They look out, right onto this 12 property -- sorry -- right onto this property, 13 and the metal and the wood that Ms. Elaine is 14 talking about, that is right outside my 15 children's window. So when a big wind comes 16 and dislodges it and it comes through my 17 bedroom window or my child's bedroom window, 18 y'all don't have to deal with that. The owner 19 is not dealing with it. I have to deal with 20 that. All right? 21 So I'd like to give you these photos 22 (indicating), and if you look -- if you look to 23 the back -- 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Please speak into the mic 25 so we can -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 18 1 MS. PALMER: Sorry. 2 Here's (indicating) -- the first page is 3 the pictures with the -- the house looking very 4 nice, but when you come back here to page 7, 5 you'll start to see this piece of wood at the 6 top has nails in it, and that's the one 7 directly outside my children's bedroom. 8 This is the piece of metal that is 9 dangling (indicating). Okay? 10 Orlando has municipal liens and 11 assessments on this property. I'm totalling 12 about $720. He hasn't paid his taxes since 13 2009 on this property. I pay my taxes. I have 14 over $600,000 invested into my home, and I'm 15 the one that picks up the trash from him. 16 We had a structural engineer, Tamara 17 (phonetic), from Baker & Klein, come out. That 18 building is unsecured, so anybody can walk into 19 it. The back door is wide open. 20 When in, it's structurally not sound, and 21 that can be attested by -- from a structural 22 engineer that we had come out as the neighbors. 23 You asked about the metal. This is what I 24 get out of my yard (indicating), a nice, big 25 nail, metal. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 19 1 I'm a stay-at-home mom with two young 2 children. I home school them. We're home all 3 the time. And when I have to go out and clean 4 my yard of somebody else's debris before my 5 children or my dogs or my husband and I can 6 enjoy our yard, that's really, really, unfair 7 to me as the homeowner. 8 When you have a house -- yes -- I mean, 9 don't get me wrong, I'm -- I'm not against 10 preservation. My house is 111 years old. I 11 completely support it when it's done 12 responsibly and when it's done by owners or 13 renters who take pride in where they live. 14 And I've been very patient for six years 15 with Orlando, and he has been a bad neighbor, 16 and I'm the one who's having to pay for it. 17 Nobody else does. There's not another house on 18 the other side of this building, and it's on an 19 alley. 20 I'm the one that is having to deal with 21 it. I go to bed at night worried, what's going 22 to be in my yard, what's going to catch on 23 fire, what's going to blow through my 24 children's bedroom window. And when, God 25 forbid, a piece of metal flies off of that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 20 1 house and hits my child, I'm the one that's 2 going to have to deal with that, not SPAR, not 3 Preservation SOS, not Orlando, not you. Me, 4 and I don't think that's fair at all. 5 And I'm just asking, please -- it's not 6 structurally sound. If it was worth saving, I 7 would be all over it, save it, but a structural 8 engineer looked at it. It's not structurally 9 sound. It's gutted. He took out every 10 historic piece of wood from that building. 11 There are no columns, there are no mantels, 12 there are no door frames. It's down to the 13 studs. The plaster is removed. 14 And when you look at some of these 15 pictures, you will see from my children's 16 bedroom windows -- you see the plaster, you see 17 the Fiberglass, you see the asbestos that is 18 still sitting in that building. 19 I replaced 41 windows in my house, 22 face 20 that building, and we can't open them. Why? 21 Let's think lead paint. Think about all the 22 lead paint that I have to deal with in my yard 23 that blows through my windows. I'm just asking 24 you, please, please -- it's not structurally 25 sound. There's nothing historic about it -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 21 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Can I ask you a 2 question? 3 MS. PALMER: -- not anymore. 4 Yes, ma'am. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Did you -- did your 6 engineer provide you with a document to state 7 that -- 8 MS. PALMER: No. This was all done 9 verbally. It was a -- it was a favor that was 10 done, please come by and take a look, so -- but 11 I'm sure that if needed, we could provide 12 something in writing if that's what the 13 commission so desires, so -- thank you very 14 much. 15 Dakota, did you want to say anything? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 MS. PALMER: My children had written down 18 statements, that they were very unhappy about 19 the fact that they can't open their bedroom 20 windows, so thank you very -- 21 MS. MANSFIELD: (Indicating.) 22 MS. PALMER: Yes, ma'am. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: The pictures that we saw, 24 you took them all? 25 MS. PALMER: Yes. Those are mine. Those Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 22 1 are yours to keep. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: And you have some notes 3 about the dates and -- 4 MS. PALMER: Yes, ma'am. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: -- and those dates 6 correspond to when you took the photos? 7 MS. PALMER: Yes, because they're based on 8 the activities that were going on. 9 Of course, the pictures that I have of 10 this house -- I've not been documenting this 11 house for six years but because I live so close 12 to it, obviously, when we have family 13 gatherings, it's in my pictures. 14 All the 2011 pictures were taken directly 15 of that house. Okay? But they were taken 16 during, like, children's birthday parties when 17 we're sitting on the porch. When we bought the 18 house in 2005, you have pictures of that house 19 next door to it -- to us. You have pictures of 20 when I was renovating my own home in 2008, and 21 so that's why you have the pictures that you do 22 have of them. That's how I know the dates. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. So those dates are 24 accurate? 25 MS. PALMER: Yes, ma'am. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 23 1 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. And those pictures 2 are accurate representations of the property 3 during those dates? 4 MS. PALMER: Yes, they are, absolutely, 5 because what I'm trying to show you -- the 6 commission, I'm trying to show you that this 7 house has been neglected, that he has come in 8 every couple of years, taken more things off of 9 it, and then walked away. He's not mothballed 10 it, he's not trying to preserve it. He's 11 letting it rot, and I'm having to pick up the 12 pieces. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 14 MS. PALMER: All right. Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Would anyone else like to 16 speak to this item? 17 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Gloria Devall, 19 Preservation SOS, 7027 Alpine Street. 20 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 21 hand for me, please. 22 MS. DEVALL: (Complies.) 23 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 24 testimony you are about to give will be the 25 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 24 1 truth? 2 MS. DEVALL: I do. 3 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 MS. DEVALL: Preservation SOS is deeply 5 concerned about -- about any demolitions. This 6 one is -- this one is tough because 7 Ms. Palmer's house is so beautiful and they 8 have done such a wonderful job and they have to 9 live next door to that. And then with the two 10 kids, I mean, who can't understand that? You 11 know, that's a tough position to be in. 12 And the houses are so close together, and 13 so, you know, what is to be done? And what's 14 to be done about a homeowner who won't be 15 responsible, who won't -- who won't be 16 responsive to people's concerns? 17 You know, Springfield needs to have little 18 kids playing in their yards. We need to have 19 that. We don't need to have an environment 20 where mothers are concerned about things flying 21 on a windy day. So I -- what the answer to 22 that is I don't know, except we are so hopeful 23 that the mothballing legislation will give us 24 some alternatives. 25 I went by and I did look at this house, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 25 1 and I have a few things I want to say about it. 2 But before I do, I -- I want to just give you a 3 little bit of information that we have 4 discovered lately. We've been trying to figure 5 out how much has been lost in Springfield, and 6 we went back to the studies back in 1985, the 7 Rudart (phonetic) studies, and in 1985 there 8 were approximately 175 vacant lots. 9 Well, we just pulled up yesterday and -- 10 through the property appraiser's data base, and 11 there are now 551 vacant lots in Springfield, 12 and that's pretty alarming. But when you 13 consider that there's 141 new builds in 14 Springfield as well, then that means that there 15 are potentially 691 empty lots, empty of 16 historic value. So that's over 500 houses that 17 potentially have been demolished since 1985, 18 and we're going to work on that and try to get 19 a more accurate figure, but this is -- this 20 house is important in the whole overall scheme 21 of saving the historic fabric of the 22 neighborhood. 23 What this man did to this house, it's a 24 crime. Like Ms. Palmer said, this house was a 25 cute house. It is one of -- there was a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 26 1 stretch along this area, and they were assisted 2 living facilities, and I remember when they 3 were occupied by a wide assortment of 4 characters, and it was -- it was something else 5 to walk by that group. They were fenced in. 6 They were -- it was like a compound, and it was 7 something else, but at least, while people were 8 living in the house, the houses stood and the 9 houses were maintained. 10 Somewhere around the Super Bowl time, they 11 mysteriously left the neighborhood and the 12 houses have been vacant since then. And during 13 the rush -- during the gold rush in Springfield 14 builders who didn't know what they were doing 15 thought it was appropriate to go in and gut 16 everything, and there are houses all throughout 17 the neighborhood where they have removed the 18 plaster and all of the trim and -- you know, 19 for whatever reason, thinking it was better to 20 go back with dry wall and Home Depot trim. So 21 that's what happened and that's what happened 22 to this house. 23 When I -- the last time I saw this 24 house -- and I did not look at it this morning, 25 and we have had some very windy days. When I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 27 1 saw this house -- the metal roof, you know, 2 it -- if you look at the house, if you look at 3 the roof line, you can see that there is -- 4 although I'm sure that the metal is becoming 5 detached, you can see the structural issues on 6 the roof. It looks pretty steady. It looks 7 pretty straight. You can -- you can see that 8 the roof is not suffering structurally, 9 although it is just a matter of time if the 10 roofing panels are falling off. 11 The walls -- where you see that one 12 section in the back, I think that might have 13 been an enclosed porch area or something that 14 was intended to be -- to be open. You can see 15 where it's sinking a little bit, the second 16 window on this side (indicating). That's the 17 only side that shows any structural settling, 18 right there. 19 And one of the things that we look at is 20 how the siding runs. If the siding runs true 21 and straight, you can assume that the walls are 22 in pretty good shape. That's a great indicator 23 of how structurally sound the house is. And 24 this house is really -- while it is unsafe with 25 things flying off of it, obviously, it's not Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 28 1 going to fall in on itself right now. It just 2 doesn't show the wear and tear. The door 3 openings are relatively straight. The window 4 openings are relatively straight. The sill 5 does have one problem, and I think you have a 6 picture of that. But other than that, the sill 7 looks pretty good. 8 We would like to -- we would like to do 9 two things. Preservation SOS would like to 10 help Ms. Palmer do whatever we could do, 11 whether that's, you know, doing weekly cleanups 12 or whatever we could do to help, to see if we 13 could defer this until the mothballing 14 legislation comes into being so that we could 15 save this house. 16 And we know the sacrifice that her family 17 has to make living next to this and we know 18 that this is a worry, but if there's anything 19 that Preservation SOS can do to help Ms. Palmer 20 and her family, we would like to do that, given 21 our limited resources, and seeing what the next 22 couple of months could do because we may have a 23 shot of doing something like saving this house. 24 If not, this will be one more empty lot. 25 And that's pretty much all I have to say Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 29 1 for that. So it may not -- it may not be safe, 2 but it isn't falling in on itself. 3 MR. THOMPSON: I have a question. 4 MS. DEVALL: Uh-huh. 5 MR. THOMPSON: Explain a little bit more 6 about the mothballing legislation. 7 MS. DEVALL: Well, I'll explain to you 8 what I know about it. 9 Bill Killingsworth met with us this summer 10 and we started talking about -- some cities 11 have board and secure permitting, which is 12 the -- really the coolest idea because what -- 13 what you can do, if you are a homeowner and you 14 know that you don't have the funds to fix up 15 your house and you are -- you know that you are 16 not in compliance with -- with your municipal 17 code enforcement, you can -- there's a middle 18 ground. And you go and you -- you pull a board 19 and secure permit, which means you go down, 20 like any other permit, you pay your fees, and 21 there's a specific guideline for what you have 22 to do. 23 And, in a nutshell, what it is is to 24 secure the openings. And, in this case, it 25 would probably mean making sure the roof is Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 30 1 secure, probably putting a coat of paint on it 2 so that lead paint dust isn't an issue for your 3 neighbors, but doing the bear minimum things, 4 not getting a certificate of occupancy, but 5 just making it safe and mothballing it so that 6 in the future it's still available for somebody 7 else to come along and restore. 8 MR. THOMPSON: Would the homeowner pay for 9 that improvement? 10 MS. DEVALL: There would be -- and I'm 11 sure that Mr. Teal could speak to that better 12 than I could. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: I was hoping he would. 14 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair to the 15 Commission. Yeah, having spent about 12 hours 16 on this legislation, the -- basically the way 17 it would work is it would authorize a 18 certificate of appropriateness as an 19 enforcement alternative. 20 Right now, basically a property owner has 21 two options. They could either tear a building 22 down or they can fix it up completely, if it 23 has Property Safety code violation issues. 24 What the mothballing program would do would be 25 to give them an alternative. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 31 1 Basically, it would require them to 2 correct any structural defects in a building 3 that makes it unsafe, pursuant to Chapter 518, 4 so that Kim Scott's group would be satisfied 5 that it no longer presents a threat to the 6 public health, safety, or welfare, but it also 7 requires somebody to seal it up; in essence, to 8 freeze dry it, if you will, until the time 9 comes when somebody can afford to actually make 10 improvements on it. 11 What's being proposed as far as the 12 initial draft goes would be a five-year 13 mothballing program, would allow somebody to 14 come in and buy five years, if you will, of not 15 having to have complete compliance with the 16 various codes. They would be able to come in 17 for an additional five-year extension on that, 18 but, again, it would have to come back to the 19 commission in order to do that. 20 So it's set up right now -- would be for a 21 certificate of appropriateness to come before 22 you-all to see whether or not that would be 23 something that would be appropriate for this 24 structure, but it would eliminate the Property 25 Safety concerns without having to bring it up Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 32 1 completely to -- to all aspects of the various 2 codes. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the -- what is the 4 time frame that we're looking at before that 5 might become a reality? 6 MR. TEAL: I know that the Planning 7 Department director wants to -- to really get 8 moving on it. I think that -- the thought 9 process was that -- I submitted the draft last 10 week, I think, back to the Planning Department 11 staff to review it. You know, I don't know 12 what the changes are going to be on that, but I 13 would anticipate probably it being filed before 14 the City Council within the next -- probably 15 within the next two cycles. And so however 16 long it spends at City Council is anybody's 17 guess, but -- but it's pretty much ready to be 18 introduced. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So, I mean, we could 20 be looking at an ordinance being passed within 21 the next 90 days maybe? 22 MR. TEAL: Right. 23 And what I -- I'm going to recommend this, 24 is that you-all have an opportunity to take a 25 look at it too, obviously, because it's -- it's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 33 1 messing with your process, but Property Safety 2 is going to have to look at it to make sure 3 that they're comfortable with what's being 4 required. 5 As Ms. Lancaster indicated, it's going to 6 be housed under Chapter 307, so it's going to 7 be under the historic preservation code, but it 8 does deal with an enforcement alternative under 9 Chapter 518, so, obviously, it's going to have 10 to go through those channels as well and then 11 whatever, you know, legislative process that it 12 would -- it would spend in, but -- but I know 13 that Commissioner Mansfield has got the 14 demolition subcommittee, and so the thought 15 process really was -- is to allow her and her 16 subcommittee to take a look at it, bring it 17 back to you-all for discussion, see whether 18 there's any tweaks, you know, modifications 19 that you-all would want to make to it, but you 20 know, really the goal is -- is to preserve 21 these structures, give them an alternative, 22 make sure it's not a blighting influence on the 23 neighborhood in its mothballed condition, but 24 eliminate the public safety components to it 25 but not require a hundred percent, you know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 34 1 renewal or -- or repairs, I guess, to the 2 structure. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: In a case like this 4 where the homeowner has been diligent in their 5 neglect of this structure, you know, what's 6 built into this legislation, just so that -- do 7 they have another year to begin mothballing or 8 is it, like, within 30, 90 days, they don't get 9 that done, what is the consequence -- 10 MR. TEAL: There's a -- the requirement 11 right now is -- is that -- again, it's going to 12 be -- a lot of it is going to be case by case, 13 but the ground rules on it are you have to 14 complete your mothballing within 90 days of 15 approval of the certificate of appropriateness. 16 Now, somebody has to -- the structural 17 issues are with the roof, and they have to put 18 a new roof on it, they may need more time than 19 that, but that would be a condition that 20 you-all would put on it. 21 So the -- the baseline would be 90 days. 22 If they argue, they say, "Well, no, we've got 23 all these other issues that have to be dealt 24 with; I need more time than that," I think the 25 maximum amount of time we gave them is six Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 35 1 months. So it has to be done in 90 days, can 2 get extensions, but in no instance longer than 3 six months. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any provisions 5 for penalties that really have some teeth to 6 prevent owners from letting these things 7 deteriorate by -- 8 MR. TEAL: That's a different process. 9 There's already an ordinance on the books 10 that's -- demolition by neglect ordinance. In 11 essence, it talks about the value of the 12 historic structures and it talks about somebody 13 allowing the structure to decay over time 14 through neglect and, in essence, get it to this 15 point where now the City steps in and says, 16 "Hey, we think we need to take this thing 17 down." That ordinance is already there. 18 Really, it's just a matter of the City choosing 19 to exercise it. And so, you know, that's one 20 of the things that we have to look at. 21 One of the other things that I didn't 22 mention as far as the mothballing program would 23 be to require -- anytime somebody comes in for 24 a structural review kind of thing, to require 25 that part of that analysis be what else can be Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 36 1 done to support the structure other than 2 demolition. In other words, does it always 3 have to be demolition or can there be something 4 else that could be done under Chapter 518, 5 which, right now, even though the City doesn't 6 go down this road, 518 does allow for repairs 7 to be made that don't go all the way to the 8 level of demolition. 9 You know, the problem with it is, is, 10 okay, well, what happens if, you know, the roof 11 that we put on it fails? You know, does the 12 property owner have any kind of recourse 13 against the City? I don't think they do, but, 14 you know, that's one of the issues that we have 15 to deal with. 16 So, you know, that -- we're already 17 working within the -- the constraints of the 18 existing 518 to talk, you know, about something 19 less than demolition as far as structural goes. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 MS. DEVALL: Can I make two statements? 22 The first, we are frustrated by this 23 because in the past when we have contacted 24 owners to see if there's something we can do to 25 help, we have found very grateful people who Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 37 1 are very willing to, you know, do their part 2 and let us do ours. When we were cleaning out 3 the house on Ionia, the homeowner helped us, 4 and so we -- we were able to -- to work and 5 give some encouragement. 6 I think the -- the one component that is 7 so important about this mothballing legislation 8 is the idea of -- of some sort of a hope. I 9 think what happens -- and maybe this happened 10 with this guy -- is people get so discouraged, 11 they just walk away from it and they don't want 12 to talk about it, they don't want to think 13 about it, they're done. 14 And so with this and what we can do is we 15 can say -- we can -- we can have a different 16 dialogue with the homeowner and say, "Okay, 17 this is coming up before you. There's going to 18 be another alternative. Let us help you get to 19 that point." And I think then it will also be 20 easier to prove demolition by neglect because 21 if they don't even choose to, you know, be 22 helped by the neighborhood organization or to 23 pull a board and secure permit, I mean, that's 24 going to be quite obvious there, so I -- we're 25 very optimistic about that. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 38 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 2 Anyone else? 3 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing none, we'll 5 close the public hearing. 6 Comments, discussion? 7 MR. THOMPSON: The thing that I -- you 8 know, I really sympathize with the next-door 9 neighbor, her family, who's had a lot of -- a 10 positive attitude about what could happen and 11 what's not happening and the continued 12 deterioration. 13 I worry -- you know, I think the 14 mothballing program is fantastic, but I worry 15 about, you know, dead-beat building owners 16 who -- I can just -- and I don't know the 17 legislation exactly; I admit it. 18 I can just imagine, you know, coming 19 forward and us sitting here and approving a 20 mothballing of this house and they have six 21 months to fix it. And, you know, five months 22 and four weeks later nothing has been done and 23 there's six more months that the poor next-door 24 neighbor and her family has to go through. 25 Probably, you know, some pretty bad times. And Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 39 1 then letters go out and then one thing after -- 2 and before you know it, you know, a year could 3 go by before something finally happens. I 4 can -- I don't know for sure if that would 5 happen, but I can just imagine it. 6 I wish there was a way you could really 7 hit the landowner in the back pocket quickly, 8 but, you know -- perhaps make progress on the 9 mothballing within 30 days. I mean, if someone 10 has got a mission -- you know, we do it every 11 day in our businesses. If you have to -- if 12 you've got a deadline, you've got to get 13 started right away and you're going to meet 14 that deadline. I don't know if you can enforce 15 that or not. Like make progress in 30 days. 16 If you haven't made progress, then we're going 17 to reverse our legislation or something. 18 I just worry that building owners like 19 this -- they'll have to be hit in the head with 20 a sledgehammer before something really will get 21 done, so -- I support the mothballing program. 22 I sympathize with the Springfield community who 23 has to put up with this garbage. 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, I have a 25 similar attitude on it because I -- we don't Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 40 1 even know what the actual time frame for the 2 mothballing is, and so I'm wondering if 3 they're -- because I would like to see the 4 house given at least another chance. I mean, 5 the -- the homeowner has given us this package 6 of photographs with dates on them. I mean, is 7 there enough evidence for an immediate action 8 against this owner under demolition by neglect? 9 MR. TEAL: (Inaudible response.) 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And what would be the 11 outcome in terms of the property ultimately? 12 Could we expect to have it removed from his 13 possession or -- 14 MR. TEAL: Well, the demolition by neglect 15 process is one of the various enforcement 16 mechanisms that the City has in dealing with 17 situations like this. In essence, it's a 18 lawsuit. 19 How quickly that moves through the court 20 system, you know, I can't say. You know, 21 the -- I would say a minimum of six months, 22 but -- and that's probably optimistic. But, 23 you know, in essence, what it is is it would be 24 a lawsuit for injunctive relief and civil 25 penalties. We would ask for a court order to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 41 1 require this person to repair the structure. 2 You know, they're going to come back and 3 they're going to say, "I don't have any money," 4 and, you know, all of the various responses, 5 which, you know, is -- it's probably one of the 6 largest reasons why this enforcement mechanism 7 hasn't been used, is -- is that the functional 8 reality is that you require somebody to spend 9 money and restore a structure. You know, the 10 argument is that, well, it's probably -- they 11 knew what they were doing when they bought it 12 and they knew what they were buying and they 13 let it get to this condition and it's really -- 14 they shouldn't be rewarded for their own 15 neglect is pretty much the premise behind 16 demolition by neglect. 17 It's not a quick process; it's the legal 18 system, you know, and at the end of the day we 19 may have an injunction, but, you know, going 20 out and trying -- and enforcing that injunction 21 is probably going to be the next step of a 22 difficult task. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I have a lot of 24 sympathy for this homeowner. Obviously, you 25 shouldn't have to worry about getting hit by Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 42 1 pieces of material falling off the house next 2 to yours, but I also look at the photographs 3 and I see very straight walls, a straight roof 4 line, piers on the front porch that are 5 probably straighter than most of the front 6 porch posts that are in houses that are 7 occupied in both Springfield and Riverside, 8 Avondale, frankly, and -- and, to me, there's 9 no reason why this neighbor has to be subjected 10 to things flying off the building. 11 Our current ordinance is not written to 12 give you the Hobson's choice of a building or 13 safety. That building can be made so that 14 there's some sort of temporary repair made to 15 that roof so that things are not flying off to 16 endanger without the need for demolishing it. 17 And that corner post, with that sill rot on it, 18 can be supported so that it doesn't endanger 19 the building from falling down without 20 demolishing the whole thing. 21 And I don't understand why the City will 22 not use the mechanisms in place to not only 23 support its public interest and public safety 24 but also its declared public interest in the 25 historic district. I just don't understand, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 43 1 and I -- frankly, I resent the fact that it's 2 being placed in front of this commission to 3 make that Hobson's choice when it's not 4 necessary. 5 And so if we look at the demolition 6 criteria in the historic preservation code, 7 does it -- is it capable of repair? And I 8 can't recite all ten off the top of my head, 9 but that's a glaring one in this instance, 10 where it is capable of being made safe. And 11 I'm with that homeowner, it darn well should be 12 made safe. And I really don't see -- it's not 13 benefitting that homeowner for the City to be 14 playing chicken with itself, and -- and so I 15 don't see why we can't do both, make it safe 16 and preserve it. 17 I think we need evidence of the structural 18 integrity that's documented and what, if any, 19 temporary repairs can be made to make that 20 building safe before we can rule under the 21 historic preservation code as to whether or not 22 it should be demolished, just like we do for 23 every other building that comes before us for 24 demolition. 25 MR. THOMPSON: Are you suggesting that the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 44 1 City pay for those temporary repairs? Because 2 the homeowner won't -- 3 MS. MANSFIELD: It winds up having to, but 4 it charges that cost against the property 5 owner, just like it does for all of these when 6 it cites for grass that hasn't been mowed. I 7 mean, they're going out there mowing the grass 8 and then charging them, but they won't go out 9 there and temporarily fix the roof so it 10 doesn't fly off and hit the owner? 11 MS. SIMON: They pay for the demolition. 12 They pay for the demolition, which is probably, 13 easy, 6-, $7,000, if not more. 14 MR. THOMPSON: I just needed a 15 clarification. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other comments? 17 Could I -- 18 MS. SIMON: Can we ask -- can we bring 19 somebody back up? I just have a question. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Please. We can do it 21 briefly. 22 MS. SIMON: Okay. Gloria. 23 (Ms. Devall approaches the podium.) 24 MS. SIMON: I'm sorry. 25 Has anyone -- do you know of anyone Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 45 1 speaking to -- this is a doctor that owns this 2 property. Has anyone spoken to him to see if 3 he would be interested in mothballing, if he 4 would be open to that? 5 MS. DEVALL: We haven't talked to him 6 about mothballing, per se. We've asked for 7 permission to get on the property because we'd 8 like to, you know, clean it, make sure it's 9 boarded and stuff like that. We haven't gotten 10 any response. But we can say there is this 11 pending mothballing legislation, and if you -- 12 you know, if you work with us, that would go 13 far towards maybe dispelling any notion of, you 14 know, demolition by neglect. I mean, we can 15 use that. We haven't done that yet, but we 16 could. 17 MS. SIMON: Okay. I'm just curious 18 because I think the owner was the one who 19 wanted the demolition and he has continued to 20 tear this property apart, so it's kind of a 21 moot point if the owner says, I don't want to 22 do it and I want it demoed, so I think that's 23 just kind of the question -- 24 MS. DEVALL: Has he -- did he request 25 demolition? I don't believe so. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 46 1 MS. SIMON: I thought he requested 2 demolition on one of the properties that came 3 in front of us. So maybe it wasn't this one, 4 but maybe it was another one. He did 5 request -- 6 MS. PALMER: He had an open permit for 7 demolition. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: If you're going to speak, 9 it has to be up here (indicating). 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I mean, we've 11 already closed the public hearing -- but all 12 right, come on up. 13 (Ms. Palmer approaches the podium.) 14 MS. PALMER: Sorry. 15 There was an open permit in 2008/2009 for 16 demolition from the Special Master's [sic] on 17 that property. 18 MS. SIMON: Was it this one or another 19 one? 20 MS. PALMER: No, it's 1325. 21 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair, that's an 22 order that's issued by the Special Master 23 through the Municipal Code Enforcement Board 24 process, so it's not a demolition permit, it's 25 not a demolition COA, which would be -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 47 1 basically it's the administrative authorization 2 for the City to pursue demolition. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 4 MS. SIMON: I just ask -- I live right 5 around the corner and I had heard that the 6 owner wants the property demoed, so that -- one 7 of them -- there has been -- he has demoed one 8 of those properties. There were five there and 9 there's only four now. Just that's -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's try to wrap this up. 11 I would love someone to entertain a motion 12 that we can move forward one way or the other. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: I'll make a motion to deny 14 the request for demolition and require that 15 repairs be made, if that's within our 16 authority, to make the property safe. 17 MR. TEAL: The request is for demolition, 18 so I think that you would just vote to deny the 19 demolition request with the direction that a 20 less intense remedy of the unsafe conditions be 21 sought. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well -- and I'd also 24 just like to add, I think it's -- it places us 25 in a very difficult position to vote for Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 48 1 demolition when we don't really have a document 2 from any structural engineer or the City even 3 saying that -- well, they have the Special 4 Master, but as a commission I think it's great 5 for us to have that documentation from a 6 professional engineer. 7 MR. TEAL: And, actually, let me 8 clarify -- correct my last statement. 9 What the code says -- under 307.113, it 10 says, "If the Commission requests that the 11 structure not be demolished, then the 12 Commission shall advise Municipal Code 13 Compliance as to what actions will be taken to 14 correct the unsafe conditions and when such 15 actions will be taken in order to avoid the 16 necessity of the City proceeding with the 17 abatement action." 18 So you do have to give them direction as 19 to what you want -- what repairs, I guess, you 20 want to see. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Just the securing of the 22 roof panels so that they're not endangering the 23 neighbor and to board and secure the windows 24 and doors -- 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Stabilization of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 49 1 structure. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, stabilization of the 3 structure. 4 MR. MOORE: Is there a time frame in 5 there? 6 MR. TEAL: You have to -- it says that you 7 need to advise when -- it says, "what actions 8 will be taken to correct the unsafe conditions 9 and when such actions will be taken." And then 10 if Municipal Code Compliance determines that 11 demolition is the appropriate action and that 12 other abatement action is not economically 13 feasible or practical, then they can go and 14 demolish the structure. 15 So basically you can tell them the things 16 that we heard as far as why this is unsafe or 17 the roof and the -- the sills. We think that 18 those can be repaired or made safe, go out and 19 make a determination as to whether or not 20 that's economically feasible, I guess, in 21 comparison to what it would cost to demolish 22 the structure. And then if they make a 23 determination that that's not economically 24 feasible to do those repairs, then, you know, 25 they would then be free to pursue demolition. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 50 1 MS. MANSFIELD: Without returning to us? 2 MR. TEAL: Correct. 3 MR. MOORE: Give them ten days. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Ten days? 5 MR. MOORE: Yes. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: To make it safe or make 7 the determination? 8 MR. MOORE: Make the determination. 9 Thirty days, but, I mean, something short. 10 MS. SIMON: Then, again, who makes the 11 determination? 12 THE CHAIRMAN: So -- 13 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, to make a motion to 14 deny the demolition and require that the roof 15 and corner of the sill be stabilized so as not 16 to endanger the neighbor or anyone else for 17 that matter, and that it be completed within 18 30 days, and also to request the General 19 Counsel's Office to look into whether it is an 20 appropriate case for demolition by neglect. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And board and secure. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: And board and secure. 23 MR. ALLMAND: Can we also add something 24 about the lead paint? I mean, I think that -- 25 you know, lead paint blowing into the yard when Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 51 1 she has kids can be a danger. 2 MR. TEAL: I guess the question is -- is 3 whether or not under Chapter 518 -- I mean, 518 4 is -- I don't know that they deal with that as 5 being under their definition of "unsafe." It 6 talks about walls or structural members that 7 sag or overload, damaged by fire, insecurely 8 fixed pieces, parts or attachments -- 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, my feeling on 10 that is that's not pertinent to the immediate 11 structural integrity of the building, so let's 12 do what's immediately required to keep this 13 building standing here and address that. 14 MR. TEAL: And that might be the easy way 15 to frame the motion is to perform whatever work 16 is the -- I guess the minimum amount necessary 17 to address the conditions of the property that 18 make it unsafe as defined under Chapter 518. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. That's what I'll 20 do. 21 I make a motion to deny the demolition and 22 to require that the minimum be performed on the 23 building necessary to make it safe under 518 of 24 the City ordinances and to also request that 25 the General Counsel's Office look into this Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 52 1 at -- for a possible demolition by neglect 2 prosecution, and to also require the -- board 3 and secure. 4 MR. TEAL: And also, I guess, to require 5 an alternative of a finding that it's not 6 economically feasible to perform whatever those 7 actions are. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: Supported by at least 9 three bids on the work. 10 MR. THOMPSON: I'll second that. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion and 12 a second. 13 All those in favor, aye. 14 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Those against. 16 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have 18 denied the demolition of 1325 North Laura 19 Street. 20 All right. Now we'll move on to 21 certificates of appropriateness. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The landmark? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I'm sorry, I skipped 24 over it. 25 Thank you. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 53 1 We're going to look at a landmark status 2 for Fire Station Number 3, 1406 Gator Bowl 3 Boulevard. 4 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, this landmark 5 designation is technically sponsored by the 6 preservation commission as a continuation of 7 our efforts to designate as many City-owned 8 properties that qualify as possible. 9 The fire department is in support of this 10 designation. I have talked to them and they're 11 very much in support of it. It is not an 12 active fire station, of course. It is the 13 Jacksonville Fire Museum. And this is not its 14 original location. It was actually moved here 15 in 1994 from 12 Catherine Street, which is 16 right beside the Sheriff's Department. 17 Also, this building has a special 18 relationship with this group as well because 19 y'all's predecessor, the old Landmarks and 20 Cultural Commission, was very much involved in 21 saving this building and working with the fire 22 department to make it into a museum. 23 In doing the report and the research, we 24 found that the building met four of the 25 designation standards, and it's in the report Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 54 1 that I provided and I'll be happy to go over 2 it, but I'm sure y'all don't want to hear it. 3 So we are recommending that it -- that a 4 motion be made to forward the landmark 5 designation to the City Council for this 6 particular building. 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Joel, I'm not familiar 8 with Catherine Street. Is that between the 9 police building and the Maxwell House? 10 MR. McEACHIN: Yes, between the -- it was 11 actually about -- the building faced east on 12 Catherine Street, in between the jail -- the 13 current jail and the police station. As a 14 matter of fact, they built the police station 15 around it and kept it right there, but the 16 problem is there was no parking. And when they 17 started construction of the jail, there was 18 concern about damage not be made structurally 19 to the building, so that was why the decision 20 was made to relocate it. But because of the 21 way it was placed and the loss of historical 22 context, the building did stay on the National 23 Registry even though it was relocated. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other -- 25 MR. McEACHIN: It's a wonderful museum. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 55 1 If you haven't been there, you'd be quite 2 fascinated as to what they have, but they have 3 just an amazing collection of stuff. 4 MR. ALLMAND: Would designating this fire 5 station a landmark prevent it from being moved 6 again? 7 MR. McEACHIN: If it was going to have to 8 be moved again, which they won't do because 9 it's a great expense, but if it was, it would 10 have to come through this body under a COA. 11 There would have to be good reason, 12 justification as to why it would be moved. In 13 that particular case, it -- the justification 14 was made by the fact that the historical 15 context surrounding it was completely gone, 16 potential structural damage from the 17 construction of the jail, and then, of course, 18 there's no parking. There was no parking for 19 visitors to the museum. At least here now they 20 have those kinds of accommodations because 21 it's -- since it's part of the kids' campus. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions of 23 staff? 24 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll open it to a public Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 56 1 hearing. 2 Would anybody like to speak on behalf of 3 the fire station? 4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close 6 the public hearing. 7 Comments, discussion? 8 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: I will entertain a motion. 10 MR. ALLMAND: I'll make a motion to 11 approve landmark status for the Catherine 12 Street Fire Station Number 3, LM-11-01. 13 MS. SIMON: I'll second it. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second. 15 All those in favor, aye. 16 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 18 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you are 20 recommending landmark status for the Catherine 21 Street Fire Station Number 3. 22 MR. McEACHIN: Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 Certificates of appropriateness, 25 number 1, COA-11-002, 3513 St. Johns Avenue. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 57 1 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, this one was 2 deferred from the last meeting because at the 3 time there was no one present to speak on the 4 item. 5 This is a noncontributing property located 6 on St. Johns Avenue. And, as you notice, it 7 sits pretty deep on the lot. It was built 8 in -- we think '37. We don't -- that was the 9 circa date from the property appraiser card. 10 What they are basically requesting is to 11 remove the existing green composition shingle 12 roof and to replace it with a green metal roof. 13 Now, we generally don't support going from 14 what was originally composition to a different 15 product like metal; however, in this case, we 16 felt like that -- because the building was 17 noncontributing, because it did not engage the 18 street, it was set so far back, that going with 19 a metal product would not -- would not be 20 inconsistent with the guidelines. 21 We are concerned about the green because 22 the green is a much more contemporary color as 23 far as metal goes, and so our recommendation of 24 approval is with a condition that -- instead of 25 being green, it be in a white or a gray shade. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 58 1 I believe we do have people today that 2 can -- will speak on this matter as well. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any questions of 4 staff? 5 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public 7 hearing. 8 Is the property owner here? 9 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 10 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name and address 11 and be sworn in, please. 12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Joe Petrich. 13 I reside at 3513 St. Johns Avenue. 14 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 15 hand for me, please. 16 MR. PETRICH: (Complies.) 17 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 18 testimony you are about to give will be the 19 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 20 truth? 21 MR. PETRICH: I do. 22 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 23 MR. PETRICH: I understand the review that 24 you have given me and I understand your desire 25 to have a lighter panel in lieu of green Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 59 1 relative to historic significance; however, it 2 does sit back 40 feet. And I think in the 3 request, I had requested that we use a dark 4 color, like an evergreen, and I'm willing to -- 5 what I'm really trying to do is match this as 6 closely as possible, this color that exists 7 today. 8 The house is extremely snow white in 9 color, and I just don't think that having a 10 color that is close to that is going to be that 11 appealing and I don't think that that would 12 blend any better than it does today with the 13 green fabric that you have in this neighborhood 14 with all the live oak trees that are there. So 15 if it would help you to feel better about it, 16 if the request was to change the panel color to 17 a -- more of an aged copper or a patina green, 18 that would be something that you would get, 19 like an aged copper color, then I would 20 appreciate that and would hope that you would 21 give me that opportunity. 22 I did want to say that there are homes and 23 businesses in the historic district that do 24 have metal roofs that exist today, that are a 25 lot more visually compromising than what I'm Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 60 1 requesting. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Do you have a sample of 3 this green that you're asking for? 4 MR. PETRICH: I have a color chart. I 5 don't have a physical sample. 6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That was provided in the 7 application. 8 MR. PETRICH: Okay. That was provided 9 with the application. I wasn't aware of that. 10 But, again, if it's a -- I think we had 11 specified an evergreen color, which is pretty 12 dark, and I would be perfectly willing to 13 change that to a much lighter green if that 14 would help. 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Would you mind handing 16 over your chart to let the commission see it, 17 just -- because it's hard for us to imagine an 18 alternative. 19 MR. PETRICH: Certainly. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: If we can look at it -- 21 MS. SIMON: We have to keep it; is that 22 okay? 23 MR. PETRICH: That is fine. 24 What we would be proposing would be 25 changing to either an aged copper or the patina Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 61 1 green, if that would be of your favor. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We'll see if there 3 is anyone else that would like to speak. 4 MR. PETRICH: My roofing contractor is 5 here, but I had him available to speak in case 6 there was a technical issue that I could not 7 address. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 9 MR. ALLMAND: I have a question real quick 10 for you. 11 MR. PETRICH: Certainly. 12 MR. ALLMAND: You don't like, like, the 13 Galvalume color? It's that gray, kind of 14 shiny -- 15 MR. PETRICH: I understand the Galvalume 16 color completely. I use it in some of my 17 design works as a landscape architect. I just 18 don't -- I've been in this home for 16 years. 19 Aside from getting used to having a green roof, 20 I just cannot see it professionally, seeing 21 that color scenario on -- on my house. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 23 MR. PETRICH: Thank you. 24 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Carmen Godwin, 2623 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 62 1 Herschel Street. 2 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 3 testimony you are about to give will be the 4 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 5 truth? 6 MS. GODWIN: I do. 7 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 8 MS. GODWIN: I'm here on behalf of 9 Riverside Avondale Preservation's Design Review 10 Committee, and we struggled with this because, 11 you know, we are so adamant about not changing 12 the material. You know, so to go from the 13 shingle to the metal was an issue for us. 14 But we do agree with the staff, that -- 15 since it's a noncontributing structure, that 16 we -- that we could -- you know, we could be 17 amenable to that change. However, we were -- 18 the committee did not support the green color. 19 We didn't have the benefit of having a sample 20 to look at, so I can't comment on that, but 21 they really did not want to see the green color 22 in the metal. 23 Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anyone else? 25 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 63 1 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll close the public 2 hearing. 3 We are open for discussion. 4 MR. THOMPSON: I have a question. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I, quite frankly, could 6 support a lighter -- of the two greens that 7 were almost the same color as the roof that's 8 on it now. I think the dark green is probably 9 way too much contrast and would be too 10 reflective in nature, and I -- I could support 11 a different color, not necessarily the gray. 12 The light green has lot of gray in it, so -- 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, there's two -- 14 THE CHAIRMAN: That patina one -- 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, patina and 16 hemlock, I thought -- the hemlock gives him 17 that depth that he's looking for because it's 18 sort of grayed out a little bit. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: I think especially because 20 it's a noncontributing structure. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And, you know, having 22 lived, you know, in the neighborhood a long 23 time for as long as I can remember, so that's 24 at least over 20 years it's been green -- so 25 there's some tradition in keeping it green Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 64 1 and -- and I'm comfortable with that. 2 MR. THOMPSON: I have a question. 3 While I've been on the commission, we've 4 always steered away from approving colors, how 5 does this differ from that? 6 MR. McEACHIN: When you say "approving 7 colors," are you referring to, like, paint 8 colors? 9 MR. THOMPSON: Yeah. 10 MR. McEACHIN: A roof is a little bit 11 different because -- the color of the roof is 12 number one. If it's a color, a metal color 13 like this, this -- the chance this is ever 14 going to change is slim to none. You're 15 talking about a life of, what, 30 to 50 years 16 on some of these roofs. So that's one of the 17 reasons we look at it differently than you 18 would, say, painting a house, which is not part 19 of the design review process. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I think it's also 21 that the metal historically used was, like, the 22 galvanized color as opposed to the other color, 23 right? 24 MR. McEACHIN: Pretty consistently we've 25 always -- not unless there's historic Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 65 1 documentation to the contrary, most of the time 2 we do recommend and support the use of a zinc 3 or a galvanized or a Galvalume-type finish to 4 replicate what would have been there 5 traditionally. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: At this point, I'll 7 entertain a motion. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'll give him an option. 9 I'm comfortable with either -- did we close it 10 already? 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. I move that we 13 approve this, COA-11-002, at 3513 St. Johns 14 Avenue, for the installation of a metal roof in 15 the colors of patina green or hemlock green as 16 submitted on the color palate by the applicant. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion -- 18 MS. MANSFIELD: I -- my only comment on 19 the motion is that I -- I always like to 20 incorporate the option of complying with the 21 staff's recommendation in case for some reason 22 they were to change their mind. 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Fair enough. 24 Let me say that I'd like to make that same 25 motion, just modifying the staff condition to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 66 1 also allow for the two selected greens, patina 2 green or hemlock green. 3 MR. MOORE: Second. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a 5 second. 6 All those in favor, aye. 7 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 9 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, by your 11 action, you have approved COA-11-002 with 12 conditions. 13 MR. PETRICH: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll move on to COA-11-065 15 at 1523 Mallory Street. 16 MS. PAULL: This structure was built in 17 1940. It is listed as contributing. There 18 have been some additions and alterations to the 19 structure. It's primarily brick, but there -- 20 there's an addition, and also in the gable end 21 there's siding. 22 The applicant is proposing to add a rear 23 addition, build a new carport, and to replace 24 the driveway. 25 We are recommending approval with no Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 67 1 conditions; however, suggesting that the 2 windows on the addition have exterior profiled 3 muntins replicating the historic grid pattern. 4 All the windows on this structure have 5 been replaced at some point in time with 6 interior muntins, so we're not going to 7 condition on the addition, which will be 8 minimally visible, very -- from the street. 9 You will see there are -- there's a site 10 plan and elevations, and you could -- you will 11 slightly see it. These are extreme angles. 12 These are over two houses, looking back on an 13 angle on Mallory Street. So from those angles, 14 you will slightly see it, but it does match the 15 architecture and the design of the existing 16 structure and materials, so we don't have any 17 conditions. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: How come it wasn't on 20 the consent agenda? 21 MS. PAULL: Because RAP has some comments 22 on it. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, when you say it 24 matches existing, the original house is brick. 25 MS. PAULL: But the -- as far as we know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 68 1 there was originally siding in the gable end. 2 We don't have anything to show us otherwise. 3 There are a variety of different additions 4 on this structure that have some sort of 5 siding, nonbrick, nonmasonry -- 6 MS. MANSFIELD: I just wanted to clarify. 7 It's not because of the siding that's on 8 the obvious addition on the right side of the 9 building. 10 MS. PAULL: Correct. 11 And we have approved siding for rear 12 additions that have very limited visibility on 13 brick structures, and this is only a one-story 14 addition that does have very minimal 15 visibility. 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Is this between Park and 17 St. Johns or -- 18 MS. PAULL: Yes. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- or where is Mallory? 20 MS. PAULL: Mallory is -- you mean like -- 21 it's across from Willow Branch Library. 22 There's a big park out in front of these houses 23 and then -- I don't know the next -- Oak Street 24 is the next street. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's what we thought. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 69 1 We were just wondering. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other questions 3 of staff? 4 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Open it to a public 6 hearing. 7 Is the applicant here? 8 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Scott Leuthold, 2136 10 Forbes Street. 11 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 12 hand for me, please. 13 MR. LEUTHOLD: (Complies.) 14 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 15 testimony you are about to give will be the 16 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MR. LEUTHOLD: Yes. 19 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 20 MR. LEUTHOLD: I have a question, which -- 21 this may not be the right time to bring it up, 22 but -- I met with the owner today and she has 23 expressed an interest in changing the column 24 configuration on the carport and the back 25 porch, and I -- I'm not sure what the proper Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 70 1 channel is for -- it's a matter of reducing 2 the -- you know, we have a -- a group of three 3 columns. Do you -- you have floor plans and 4 elevations in your -- 5 In an interest of cost and access to the 6 carport, she would -- she would like to be able 7 to reduce the number from three to a single 8 couple, so ... 9 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, would that 10 change in dimension or would it be as -- the 11 same dimension as proposed? 12 MR. LEUTHOLD: I would like to see it a 13 little bit bigger given that -- you know, maybe 14 a 10 by 10 or a 12 by 12, with those -- those 15 square columns start to look a little funky, I 16 think, when you -- as they get larger, so -- I 17 prefer this configuration, but I understand 18 the -- her interest in not having to buy quite 19 as many columns and -- and to have -- you know, 20 because of the angle, it will make it easier 21 for her to -- to get into the carport, I think. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Just on the carport or 23 also the back porch? I'm not sure -- you're -- 24 MR. LEUTHOLD: Actually, no, you -- you're 25 right, the rear porch as well. She would like Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 71 1 to eliminate the second column on the left 2 side, if you will. 3 MS. MANSFIELD: And they're round or 4 square columns? 5 MR. LEUTHOLD: They're square. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: On both structures? 7 MR. LEUTHOLD: Yes. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Does anyone else have any 9 questions of the applicant? 10 MS. MANSFIELD: If we could have either -- 11 I know that you're working off the cuff here 12 and you would prefer to have drawings. 13 MR. LEUTHOLD: Right. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Is there a range of 15 sizes -- because I'm trying to think of an 16 order that we could do that would allow it, 17 that has -- something that's capable of being 18 enforced and, you know, that sort of thing, 19 if -- rather than saying it has to be ten 20 inches, unless you're comfortable with that. 21 MR. LEUTHOLD: I think ten would be a nice 22 proportion for it, and -- 23 MS. MANSFIELD: And then I'll leave it up 24 to the architects to craft that motion. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I'd like to hear some other Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 72 1 comments. 2 MR. TEAL: Mr. Chairman, before this 3 witness steps down, the concern that I have 4 about changing an application on the fly like 5 this at the meeting is that it was advertised 6 for what it was advertised for. 7 What it doesn't do is it doesn't give 8 anybody that was okay with it in its current 9 configuration the opportunity to be able to be 10 here if they had a problem with it before. You 11 know, I would like staff to confirm what 12 they -- whether they think this is a 13 significant change or not. I would also -- 14 if -- I don't know if RAP is going to be 15 speaking on this or not, but whether or not 16 they're comfortable with the proposed change 17 and -- and I guess it's the -- the risk that 18 you-all have to take is whether or not you feel 19 that it's good. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: It may be in everybody's 21 best interest to defer this and to allow the 22 applicant to revise his drawings and resubmit 23 it. 24 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I think 25 it -- personally, after -- I was at the RAP Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 73 1 design review meeting. I think that it would 2 behoove the applicant and the commission to let 3 RAP speak and then go from there as to whether 4 or not to defer the application based on the 5 minor change that the applicant is bringing 6 forward tonight. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 8 We're going to request RAP's commentary. 9 (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.) 10 MS. GODWIN: Okay. So just, in general, 11 to go through what we discussed, standard 9 12 says that new work shall be compatible with the 13 massing, scale, and architectural features. 14 And since this is going to be visible from the 15 street, the three comments that our Design 16 Review Committee had on the carport -- in 17 particular, one related to the columns, which 18 we would definitely be in support of having 19 one -- a single column that's much heavier. We 20 suggested maybe a 12 by 12. The thought was 21 that the grouping of the columns was more of 22 a -- sort of Craftsman style and not really 23 traditional and fitting in with the -- the 24 architecture of the main house. 25 The second comment had to do with the roof Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 74 1 pitch. They wanted to see the roof pitch match 2 that of the house, which is something that 3 usually is pretty standard when building an 4 accessory structure. 5 And they also wanted to see the 6 port-hole-type window a little bit smaller to 7 be more in proportion with how it sits on the 8 main structure as well or for it to be 9 eliminated altogether. 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, when the pitch 11 comes up, if it does, it will help manage the 12 scale of that. 13 MS. GODWIN: Right. 14 Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 16 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 17 THE REPORTER: Name and address, please. 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Charles Gillman, 1804 19 Elizabeth Place, Jacksonville, Florida. 20 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 21 testimony you are about to give will be the 22 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 23 truth? 24 MR. GILLMAN: I affirm. 25 THE REPORTER: Thank you. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 75 1 MR. GILLMAN: I just had a question, a 2 clarification on 1523 Mallory. 3 The carport, is it going to be a separate 4 carport, like not attached to the main 5 structure? 6 MS. PAULL: Yes. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 8 MR. GILLMAN: And you are approving it 9 with a recommendation that it match to the 10 point that the mullions on the windows should 11 match the original building? 12 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, no. 13 The -- there's also an addition. There's 14 a carport, a driveway in addition. The 15 addition is the one that has the windows that 16 are -- we're recommending that the muntins 17 actually replicate -- well, they are proposing 18 to replicate the existing, which is not the 19 original windows. And in this particular 20 situation, because the windows were previously 21 replaced with interior muntins, we are only 22 suggesting, not conditioning, that the windows 23 have exterior muntins. 24 MR. GILLMAN: And if someone were to see 25 that, would you agree that they would use Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 76 1 conjecture, assume that the new structures that 2 are being proposed were original because they 3 will match? 4 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, no, because 5 the windows have interior muntins. 6 Historically, if they would have been 7 six-over-six windows, which these are, they 8 would have had individual panes, which they 9 would have had exterior profiled muntins. They 10 would not have -- they would be true divided 11 light, not a simulated divided light, or to 12 have interior, which is between the glass, 13 muntins. It's also stepped in and 14 differentiated from the existing structure. 15 MR. GILLMAN: Okay. 16 MS. PAULL: And it's one story. 17 MR. GILLMAN: Thank you. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else to speak to 19 this? 20 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close 22 the public hearing. 23 Any discussion? 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Could we have Scott 25 Leuthold come back up? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 77 1 (Mr. Leuthold approaches the podium.) 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'd be interested -- the 3 roof pitch does look a little shallow. I don't 4 know that the pitch on the main structure needs 5 to be as steep as that, but is there a reason 6 that it's down at four and twelve or are you 7 trying to keep the structure -- 8 MR. LEUTHOLD: Well, the carport seems to 9 relate better to the addition to the house, 10 which does have a low pitch, you know, given 11 that we don't want to get up into the sills of 12 the windows above, so I would argue that the 13 carport perhaps should relate better to the 14 addition rather than the gable on the front of 15 the house, but I'm -- you know, I think a six 16 and twelve would work fine on the carport as 17 well, so ... 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you can see why -- 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: You can see why the slope 21 on the addition is -- otherwise, you'd have to 22 eliminate a window. 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. I'm glad you 24 clarified that because I see the two are really 25 looking right at each other, though, and -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 78 1 MR. LEUTHOLD: Right. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'm comfortable with 3 that, then I would just recommend that you 4 scale down the little round window or -- it -- 5 or turn it into smaller (inaudible) or 6 something so it doesn't look as big in the 7 gable. 8 MR. LEUTHOLD: Right. It does look larger 9 in relation to the gable than the -- than the 10 one on the front. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: When you look from the 12 street down the driveway, though, you're going 13 to have the main house with the carport. 14 Wouldn't it be better, then, to have those roof 15 pitches match? Because that's what the general 16 public is going to see. 17 MR. THOMPSON: That's what I think too. 18 MR. LEUTHOLD: Perhaps, yeah, although I 19 think -- historically, it seems that pitches 20 for a roof over a second story, it seems that, 21 you know, you -- say if you have eight and 22 twelve on a second story -- porch roofs are 23 typically shallower anyway and -- in a lot of 24 situations, so my only argument would be as a 25 one-story structure, it -- there's some Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 79 1 precedence for a shallower roof compared to the 2 higher, steeper pitch, but -- 3 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you know what the pitch 4 is of the main house? 5 MR. LEUTHOLD: I think it's an 8 and 12. 6 I can't remember exactly. It's either a 6 and 7 12 or 8 and 12. I'm not positive. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: It looks more like an 8 and 9 12 to me. 10 MR. LEUTHOLD: Eight? 11 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what it looks like 12 to me. 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And, you know, just to 14 counter that, it's -- this carport is so far 15 back, its relationship to the addition is much 16 (inaudible) with its relationship to the street 17 facade of the house. So, I mean, if it were my 18 yard, I would appreciate that relationship more 19 strongly than -- than the street facade because 20 it's lower and way far back. 21 Can you even see it, do you think? I 22 mean, will you be able to -- because you're 23 down also in the elevation. 24 MR. LEUTHOLD: You can see it from the 25 street. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 80 1 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I couldn't 2 really get a great straight-on shot. There 3 were a number of vehicles parked in front, 4 but -- you will see it, but it will definitely 5 be set back because the driveway is relatively 6 long, the yard is relatively deep, and from the 7 street you are looking up, so it will have 8 limited visibility and not be in the forefront 9 as some other garages would be. 10 MR. LEUTHOLD: If you look directly up 11 that left side, you know, if you lined it up, 12 you'll see a little bit less than half the 13 carport from the street. 14 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, in your 15 plans, I do believe that the front elevation of 16 the carport has a dotted line on it to show you 17 where the wall of the main house is. 18 (Simultaneous speaking.) 19 MR. LEUTHOLD: -- (inaudible) shown on the 20 elevation in the front of the carport, just 21 to -- to indicate the relationship to the 22 house. 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And I think the single 24 column is fine, and I think we -- 10 or a 12 25 inch -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 81 1 THE CHAIRMAN: I would go with the 2 heavier -- 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The 12? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Because of the width of the 7 (inaudible). 8 MS. MANSFIELD: In light of the comment 9 from the public about using a single column, do 10 we have the same concerns about the public 11 notice issue? 12 MR. TEAL: The concerns are still there, 13 but I wouldn't say that they would be as 14 magnified if RAP was supportive of it. I mean, 15 I don't see anybody else that was here. 16 Typically, what it is -- the concern is if 17 I'm a member of the general public and I was 18 okay with what was proposed and I wouldn't show 19 up to the meeting, but I really wouldn't like 20 what the change was, so I would want to show 21 up, but I think that's probably remote in this 22 case. 23 MR. ALLMAND: Couldn't it be possible to 24 just approve as is? And then if they -- ask 25 the owner about the 10 or the 12 and have that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 82 1 done through staff? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be a minor mod. 3 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, you could 4 give him the option of a 10 or a 12 or a range 5 from 10 to 14, I don't know, whatever you're 6 looking at, and then have final plans to be 7 reviewed by staff to confirm that they've met 8 that condition versus coming back with a minor 9 modification because then that prolongs it out 10 an extra month or two. 11 MR. TEAL: Yeah, I would probably 12 recommend giving them a range of what you think 13 would be appropriate. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other comments? 15 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 MR. LEUTHOLD: Thanks. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe I closed the 19 public hearing, did I not? 20 MR. MOORE: Yes. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: I will entertain a motion. 22 MR. THOMPSON: I'll go ahead and make a 23 motion. 24 I'll make a motion that we approve 25 COA-11-065 with staff recommendations. In Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 83 1 addition, that we allow the double columns on 2 both the addition as well as the carport to be 3 modified to become single columns, and the 4 columns should be 12 inch square, and that the 5 final column size would be approved by staff 6 review. 7 MR. TEAL: Did you want to address the 8 porthole window? 9 MR. THOMPSON: Another request is that 10 the -- another condition is that the porthole 11 window be reduced in size with final review by 12 the staff for approval. 13 MR. TEAL: And I guess the intent is to be 14 reduced in size to be consistent in terms of 15 scale with the porthole on the main structure? 16 MR. THOMPSON: That the porthole be 17 reduced in size and scale to be consistent with 18 the current porthole on the existing house. 19 MR. TEAL: And then was there an issue 20 with the pitch of the roof? I don't know where 21 y'all came down on -- 22 THE CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible.) 23 MR. TEAL: Okay. 24 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I just have 25 one question for clarification. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 84 1 On the first condition regarding the 2 columns, you said modified to a single column 3 of 12 inches but staff to confirm a range of 4 size. Do you -- are you okay with 10 or 12 or 5 you just -- 10 or 12? 6 MR. THOMPSON: We're recommending 7 12 inches. 8 MS. PAULL: Okay. Recommending and 9 then -- 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'd say that's on the 11 carport only. I think on the porch it can be 12 the smaller -- on that back porch, it seems 13 like it would be pretty -- 14 THE CHAIRMAN: But then you may want to 15 rephrase it to give him some latitude there. 16 MR. THOMPSON: I'll rephrase my condition, 17 that the double columns on the carport be 18 modified to single columns, from 10 to 12 19 inches, final approval by the staff; and the 20 columns on the porch addition be modified to 21 single, 8 to 10 inches in size, final approval 22 by the staff. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion. 24 Do I hear a second? 25 MR. MOORE: Second. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 85 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second. 2 Any further discussion? 3 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, aye. 5 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 7 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you -- by 9 your action, you have approved COA-11-065 with 10 conditions. 11 MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to 12 have to leave now. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 14 MR. MOORE: Thank you. 15 (Mr. Moore exits the proceedings.) 16 THE CHAIRMAN: For the record, we still 17 have a quorum. 18 COA-11-066, 1582 Glendale Street. 19 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. Y'all have to bear 20 with me. This report I didn't prepare. Autumn 21 had to leave us, so I'll try. I have to 22 (inaudible) them through. 23 This particular site was where an existing 24 one-story house was located and it was approved 25 for demolition a couple of months ago and now Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 86 1 the applicant is moving forward with a design 2 of a new house, and the particular house design 3 is one that you've seen before. It was 4 approved for Jean Street, which is a couple of 5 blocks away from this particular site, and it's 6 a one-story house, sort of a 7 Craftsman-influenced house. 8 And just as we made recommendations, 9 conditions -- a recommendation with conditions 10 on that one, we also would recommend 11 approval -- let me go ahead and read into the 12 record what our recommended conditions are. I 13 can try to explain them if you have any 14 questions. Of course, we do have the applicant 15 here to also address the conditions and any 16 questions that you might have. 17 The conditions are that the final plans 18 and product information shall be approved by 19 staff prior to permitting. The finished floor 20 height and front setback shall match the 21 adjoining properties. The treads and risers -- 22 this is number 3 -- of both the front and rear 23 steps shall be enclosed to give the steps a 24 more finished appearance. The windows shall be 25 recessed within the openings and trimmed out in Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 87 1 a traditional manner. The windows proposed for 2 the front elevation only shall feature an 3 exterior raised profile muntin. 4 Number 6, the front porch support beams 5 shall be articulated in a traditional manner, 6 since we're not having a board and batten 7 appearance, as indicated on the submitted 8 elevations. 9 Number 7, minor changes and architectural 10 details, such as light patterns, column design, 11 masonry materials, can be handled 12 administratively by the Planning and 13 Development Department. 14 Regarding the new driveway, we recommend 15 approval with the condition that the driveway 16 should be no wider than 10 feet and that the 17 driveway should feature a simulated ribbon 18 appearance from the front property line to just 19 beyond the front corner of the house, and this 20 can be achieved through the use of brick or a 21 combination of stamping and staining the 22 portion of the concrete to mimic the 23 traditional ribbon appearance of historic 24 driveways. 25 We are making a suggestion that the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 88 1 proposed front-facing dormer window be a more 2 traditional design. Again, this is just a 3 suggestion only. It does not -- it's not a 4 recommended condition. 5 And that they use a more traditional 6 material in the gable ends in lieu of the 7 proposed board and batten. And, again, it's 8 just like we discussed when this design came up 9 before, is that board and batten is not a 10 particularly common design material. You do 11 see it in Tudor Revivals and the (inaudible) 12 and the (inaudible) and stuff like that, but 13 in -- under this one, you don't quite see it. 14 And that's the report and the 15 recommendation. We do have people here to 16 speak on this matter, and I'll be happy to 17 answer any questions. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for staff? 19 MR. ALLMAND: I have a question. 20 Where on the -- is the other residence on 21 this map, like -- that's very similar to it? 22 Or how close is it? 23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Three blocks and around 24 the corner. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other questions Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 89 1 of staff? 2 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 3 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public 4 hearing. 5 The applicant is present. 6 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 7 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name and address 8 and be sworn in. 9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: John Wells, 1530 Elmar 10 Road, Jacksonville, 32226. 11 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 12 testimony you are about to give will be the 13 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MR. WELLS: Yes. 16 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: First off, do you have any 18 problems with any of the staff's 19 recommendations or conditions? 20 MR. WELLS: No, we're fine. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You're good with 22 everything? 23 MR. WELLS: Uh-huh. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Let me ask you a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 90 1 question because I was going to ask this 2 question of staff. Is -- the condition where 3 the raised muntins are on the front only, I'm 4 not comfortable with that. I don't understand 5 why it can't be on the whole house. Would that 6 be a problem for you? 7 MR. WELLS: It was done on the Jean Street 8 house that way and -- the muntins are on the 9 front only. It's typical. A lot of times the 10 houses didn't have muntins all the way around; 11 they had clear windows. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: You're proposing one over 13 ones for the other sides? 14 MR. WELLS: Yes. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: So you only have a muntin 16 pattern on the front? 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's not what's on the 18 drawings. 19 MR. WELLS: They were (inaudible) drawings 20 turned in yesterday. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Currently on the elevations 22 you're showing nine over one. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Not all of them, actually. 24 They vary between nine over one, six over one, 25 and just four. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 91 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: But they have muntins? 2 MR. WELLS: Yes. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think the muntins 4 should be consistent on the house, is what I'd 5 like to change the condition to. I mean, not 6 the -- not the light pattern, but the fact that 7 if there's muntins, then it should all be the 8 same raised profile consistently. 9 MS. SIMON: Did you say you were doing the 10 muntins around the corner, though, or are 11 you -- just one over one around the -- 12 MR. WELLS: Well, the -- what was proposed 13 was one over ones. That's what was done on the 14 Jean Street house, and -- 15 MR. McEACHIN: He did -- John did drop 16 off -- I believe it was yesterday; is that 17 correct -- 18 MR. WELLS: Yes. 19 MR. McEACHIN: -- new plans that show the 20 side windows as being one over one and the 21 front still being the nine over one. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: It's -- what's in our book 23 is nine over ones. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: Were there any other 25 changes made between these plans and the new Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 92 1 ones that were submitted? 2 MR. WELLS: No. That was an original 3 plan, and this all came about very quickly. We 4 had to get the application in, so the -- the 5 plans were revised and submitted. 6 And the reason some of the windows are six 7 over one and some are four over one is you try 8 to maintain the same, you know, picture size or 9 frame size and -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: That's okay. 11 Any other questions of the applicant? 12 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. WELLS: Sure. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else that 16 would like to speak to -- 17 (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.) 18 MS. GODWIN: We felt that the -- well, the 19 staff conditions are pretty standard. 20 I have some comments I'm going to read, 21 and I -- I apologize, but I don't completely 22 understand all of them, so I'm just going to 23 read it and hopefully you will understand them. 24 Additional comments were related -- so one 25 is the shed roof -- shed roof on the rear Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 93 1 porch. The width of the porch must be less 2 than the width of the house so single pitch 3 fits under gable roof. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, it's kind of a 5 hipped -- I think it's maybe not a shed 6 completely. It's a -- 7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's not a shed. Well, 8 this (inaudible) is a hip. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. Well, we need to 10 see -- see the revised plan, but this one is 11 actually -- you're looking at -- not a shed. 12 You're looking at the side of a hip, so it 13 should technically fit. 14 MS. GODWIN: Okay. And then they -- 15 they're also suggesting -- which I think this 16 is a new thing, but -- using tongue and groove 17 flooring on the front porch instead of 18 pressure-treated decking. 19 And then the staff -- I thought I remember 20 the staff bringing up the fact that they didn't 21 like to see the same house being built in 22 multiple locations, the sort of cookie-cutter 23 effect, and so our group supported that, but we 24 didn't see it on -- anything related to that on 25 the condition, so that was something in our Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 94 1 comments that -- you know, if there was 2 something on the front elevation that should be 3 visually different, you know, like changing 4 things, like maybe the hand rails, columns, 5 fenestration, brackets, using a different 6 material on the gable, those sorts of things, 7 just to, you know, make it look a little bit 8 different. But, again, that -- that was 9 discussed in our meeting, but it didn't come up 10 in the staff report, so ... 11 MR. McEACHIN: We did discuss that in our 12 deliberations on the staff level and we felt 13 like there wasn't enough changes. Number one, 14 I think that the floor plan has been reversed, 15 so it's -- there's a different relationship on 16 the front elevation. Also, I don't believe 17 there are side lights on this one compared to 18 the other one, and we felt like this one is far 19 enough away that visually you're not going to 20 relate the two necessarily. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Does it have a board and 22 batten? 23 MR. McEACHIN: I think -- and, again, I'll 24 definitely defer to anybody that knows, but I 25 think that the commission went ahead and Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 95 1 allowed them to have the board and batten, but 2 I could be wrong. We were recommending not to 3 use that product, but I think that -- this is 4 just a suggestion on this particular report. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, the photograph in 6 the packet is the first built house, right? 7 MR. McEACHIN: Yes. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: And that has the board and 9 batten on it. 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yours is a suggestion, 11 so maybe that becomes a condition, in order to 12 get that little bit of difference. 13 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I do 14 believe that that photograph is included and 15 the applicant may be able to speak to this. 16 It's a home that was built in Murray Hill 17 because one of the -- the first one of these 18 was built over in Murray Hill, and since, there 19 has been one that was built on Jean Street, and 20 this will be the second one that's in the 21 district. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 23 MR. WELLS: This is the picture you're all 24 looking at? 25 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 96 1 MR. WELLS: Okay. Yes, it had the board 2 and batten in the gables. That's a detail 3 that's been done and -- 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Where is this one 5 (indicating)? 6 MR. WELLS: That one is on Jean Street in 7 Avondale. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: This is the Avondale 9 house, not the Murray Hill house? 10 MR. WELLS: No, it's not. 11 And board and batten is a -- you know, I 12 can't quote history and dates and all that, but 13 it's a detail that's been done. It's done very 14 commonly in Springfield also. 15 And I might add that the homeowner is 16 requesting to make it -- decided to make a 17 choice. They may not want the board and 18 batten. They may want the lap siding. I 19 don't -- we haven't really decided that yet. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, if you want to offer 21 the materials, you need to make sure you have 22 that option available to you here because if 23 board and batten were approved, you would 24 actually need to see staff about changing the 25 material. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 97 1 MR. WELLS: Well, I assumed in this case 2 if I didn't want board and batten, they would 3 be happy to change it. 4 MR. McEACHIN: Let me state on the record, 5 regarding the Jean Street property, we did find 6 the COA file on that particular one. One of 7 the conditions that the commission was -- the 8 proposed porch shall be articulated in a 9 traditional manner, specifically no board and 10 batten. 11 MR. WELLS: Well, it says -- I believe it 12 says the beam underneath the eyebrow, the 13 surrounding beam not be board and batten 14 because the original plan did show that because 15 that's what -- that's the way the Murray Hill 16 house was built, and we did that. The beam 17 that's over the porch is solid; it's not board 18 and batten. 19 MR. McEACHIN: Well, in this case, it's 20 just as I read it from the final order. 21 MR. WELLS: Okay. Well, the question, I 22 believe -- and I'm not -- I don't have that in 23 front of me, but the question was -- that the 24 original plan showed the board and batten 25 continuing down on the beam around the porch, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 98 1 and they said they didn't want that, and we 2 didn't do it. It's got -- if you look at the 3 picture, it's got a solid beam around it. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: This photograph is the 5 Jean Street house, the one -- 6 MR. WELLS: I have a color one if you'd 7 like. It might be a little easier to see. 8 MS. SIMON: On the one we have, it just 9 says the front porch support beams -- 10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I know what you're 12 talking about, but where is this house? 13 (Simultaneous speaking.) 14 MR. WELLS: Jean Street. 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. I still think -- 16 maybe a final submittal on these documents 17 might be in order because that -- that one 18 upstairs room looks like it needs an egress 19 window if it's unoccupied. 20 MR. ALLMAND: It's not a bedroom, though. 21 MR. WELLS: It's not a bedroom. 22 MR. ALLMAND: It's -- I've actually been 23 in the house on Jean Street, and the -- it's 24 like a finished attic space. 25 MR. THOMPSON: But it does -- there's a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 99 1 note on here that says "future bedroom". 2 MR. WELLS: Not in the front. The back 3 does have a -- where it says "future bedroom" 4 does have an egress window. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So are you saying the 6 Jean Street order said no board and batten? 7 MR. McEACHIN: That's correct. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It's board and batten. 9 He just showed me the photograph. 10 MR. WELLS: I don't have the Jean Street 11 in front of me, but it was a suggestion. I 12 believe it was not a requirement. 13 MR. McEACHIN: I'm just -- 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Does anybody have any 15 concerns with modifications in this? 16 MR. ALLMAND: I think it's a beautiful 17 house. I am a little bit concerned about the 18 fact that there will now be three of these in, 19 like, a one-mile radius. 20 MR. WELLS: Well, again, historically, 21 there have been sister houses and even rows of 22 houses built exactly the same in the -- in 23 cases where we've built two houses together 24 side by side or whatever, we have made changes 25 to -- we have made changes to make the houses Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 100 1 look different. This one is three blocks down 2 the road and around the corner. 3 In the historic district, they want more 4 of the Craftsman, which we do quite a bit of. 5 We're building one just like this over on 6 Shirley Avenue and we chose to make it more of 7 a Florida-style house, so we make changes 8 whenever we can. But, once again, 9 historically, there are sister houses 10 everywhere. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: How do you feel about the 12 comment about using tongue and groove flooring 13 on the front porch instead of pressure treated? 14 MR. WELLS: Well, there's a 15 pressure-treated product available, but they -- 16 the stuff shrinks and it's -- I don't think 17 it's a good product, I don't like it. 18 Historically, they used it because they 19 didn't have anything any better, I guess. I 20 don't know, but they sloped the porches and 21 tried to run the water off the front of them, 22 but they all rotted, every one of them rotted. 23 Every one of them rotted. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: So what material are you 25 planning on using for -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 101 1 MR. WELLS: It's pressure treated, just 2 regular deck boards. 3 MS. MANSFIELD: Just -- 4 MR. WELLS: And we turn them sideways so 5 you get a smooth profile on the front. 6 MS. SIMON: You can't tell from the 7 street, then? 8 MR. WELLS: No, you can't. 9 In most of the new construction that's 10 been done, I've never seen anything else used 11 but that. We actually used some on the Ionia 12 Street house that we built for Operation New 13 Hope, but it -- once again, it shrinks up and 14 it's just -- I don't like it. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I think the comment 16 wasn't tongue and groove pressure treated, it 17 was tongue and groove instead of -- 18 MR. WELLS: Well, we have to treat it 19 somehow or it's going to rot, and the 20 pressure-treated stuff is wet and it shrinks 21 up. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: They would traditionally 23 paint it or stain it or use the Trex-type 24 material or something. 25 MR. WELLS: Well -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 102 1 MS. MANSFIELD: I just -- 2 MR. WELLS: Once again, it -- you asked me 3 if I like it. I don't like it. It all rotted. 4 To me, you get a better product out of this. 5 We turn it sideways so you get a smooth profile 6 in the front and it's a better material. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other questions? 8 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you. 10 MR. WELLS: Sure. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else to speak to 12 this item? 13 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close 15 the public hearing. 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'll go ahead and make a 17 motion. 18 I don't think -- I'm not planning to 19 address the flooring on the porch, only because 20 it is flat and it's not that visible. And I 21 understand it's been done like this, but I -- I 22 am planning to make the siding change a 23 condition, and I advise the applicant that it's 24 not a suggestion at this point, this will be a 25 condition of the order. So unlike the Jean Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 103 1 Street property -- I think that was also a 2 condition of the order -- make sure that you 3 comply with the final request. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Could I -- sorry -- before 5 you get deep into the motion? 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Go ahead. 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Would you be considering 8 siding or shingles or the option? 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: We can give him the 10 option. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I move that we approve 13 COA-11-066 at 1592 Glendale Street with the 14 seven listed staff conditions. 15 I am going to modify condition 5 to say 16 that windows proposed for all the elevations 17 shall feature exterior raised profile muntins 18 where designated, as muntins on the elevations, 19 window drawings. 20 Suggestion two, we're going to make a 21 condition of the order, which is to use a 22 traditional material, shingle, or siding in the 23 gable ends in lieu of the proposed board and 24 batten. 25 And I think we'll go ahead and -- for the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 104 1 new driveway, the staff conditions as listed. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: Just to clarify, the -- 3 with regard to the windows, are you -- 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: If there's any 5 changes -- I know that there's no muntins 6 specified right now on the balance of the 7 design, but if something changes, I want them 8 all to have the same -- 9 MS. MANSFIELD: I just want to clarify, 10 you're not -- it's not a condition that they 11 have any pattern -- 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: No. I was trying to 13 say -- I may have misspoke, but what I was 14 trying to say was if something changes in the 15 final submittal and there are muntins on those 16 side elevations, I want them all to have the 17 same profile. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. 19 MR. THOMPSON: I have a question too. 20 Joel, what is the official design that 21 we're talking about? Is it the one that's in 22 the book or is it the one that you just gave 23 out? 24 MR. McEACHIN: Well, our report was based 25 upon what he submitted, and what he Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 105 1 submitted -- and according to what I 2 understand -- again, I -- we have not had the 3 opportunity to compare what he just brought in 4 yesterday and what was in the book, but this 5 testimony of the applicant is that the only 6 change was to -- instead of showing the nine 7 over one on the sides, it's going to be a one 8 over one. 9 MR. THOMPSON: Right. I mean, that's what 10 I'm saying. If you're making a condition, you 11 probably need to clarify, which -- I don't want 12 any confusion later, but -- 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: There's two little 14 muntins on either side of the chimney. I want 15 them to have a raise profile. Anywhere they're 16 indicated on the drawings that are submitted 17 today, I want that raised profile. 18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: No, I'll make one other 20 comment on your drawings. You're showing a 21 back porch on the two side elevations and not 22 on your rear elevation. 23 MR. WELLS: There's another page -- 24 MS. PAULL: You need to speak into the 25 microphone if you are going to speak, please. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 106 1 (Mr. Wells approaches the podium.) 2 MR. WELLS: It's page number 5 or 6. It 3 shows the alternate rear elevation with the 4 porch. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And you're doing that 6 one? 7 MR. WELLS: Yes, ma'am. 8 I apologize for the -- these plans. 9 They -- we attempted to -- once again, we had 10 to get this application in very quickly and I 11 already had the staff report by the time I 12 turned in the plans, and we attempted to 13 address some of the stuff in the staff report 14 on the -- on the revised plans. 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's fine. That's why 16 it's important for that condition number 1 17 where your final plans are submitted. 18 MR. WELLS: Sure. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: I'll second the motion. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a 21 second. 22 All those in favor, aye. 23 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 25 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 107 1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have 2 approved COA-11-066 with conditions. 3 At this time, we'll take a ten-minute 4 recess. 5 (Brief recess.) 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We would like to move on to 7 COA-11-077, 1804 Elizabeth Place. 8 MS. PAULL: All right. This COA 9 application has two requests. One of them is 10 for the construction of a roof over the rear 11 porch and the other is to replace jalousie 12 windows on the upper rear elevation, which is 13 the upper rear corner, on the left side of the 14 house. 15 This is the house from Elizabeth Place 16 (indicating). Many of you are probably 17 familiar with it. It's very unique to 18 Jacksonville because it is a textbook example 19 of Prairie architecture. It has the hourglass 20 windows, the low sloping roof, the large eaves, 21 it has cantilevered canopies over the historic 22 openings on the first floor, and a number of 23 other features that make this structure very 24 unique to Jacksonville. So we're very happy 25 that somebody is loving this house and working Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 108 1 on it and restoring it. 2 Part of the projects that they're looking 3 at doing -- currently, they're -- oh, we don't 4 have the little thing anymore. 5 Back on -- I'll talk about the roof first, 6 the porch roof. On that rear facade, the 7 cantilevered canopy that goes across the back 8 on the first floor was altered. The applicant 9 is the property owner, and he has a copy of the 10 original plans. And the cantilevered canopies, 11 historically, were over the historic openings 12 on the first floor, but that area was altered 13 presumably when the kitchen renovation was done 14 and a terrace was added in the '80s or '90s. 15 So that area has been previously altered. 16 However, around the left side elevation, which 17 I couldn't get a good photograph of, there's a 18 cantilevered canopy that is historic. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'm just going to 20 interrupt you so I'm familiar. The elevation 21 that's toward the right side of the house, 22 that's actually the rear yard elevation? 23 MS. PAULL: Yes. The one on the right 24 side of the picture. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And this is St. Johns Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 109 1 (indicating)? 2 MS. PAULL: Correct. 3 You're seeing the right side elevation, 4 which is actually facing St. Johns, but the 5 right elevation -- or the -- on the -- the 6 elevation on the right side of your screen 7 currently is the rear elevation. This is what 8 would be considered the left (indicating). 9 There is a -- I don't know -- you can't -- back 10 here (indicating) there's a cantilevered 11 canopy, and that would potentially be affected 12 by the original plans submitted by the 13 applicant, so staff is conditioning that on 14 this -- the terrace currently exists, this 15 paved terrace, and the applicant is proposing 16 to install a hip roof over it -- that the 17 applicant is -- or that the porch roof is not 18 tied into those cantilevered canopies so that 19 they're maintained on the left elevation, which 20 is back here (indicating). 21 On the rear, over here (indicating), this 22 area right here has already been altered. We 23 don't know what part of it is original and what 24 part of it is an addition, so the 25 differentiation between the roof lines and the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 110 1 cantilevered canopy only sticks out about 2 three-and-a-half feet. The actual proposed 3 terrace roof sticks out thirteen, is a 4 differentiation in projection. So with not 5 knowing what the historic outline of the 6 cantilevered canopy was and knowing that the 7 area has already been altered, we felt 8 comfortable with that being the 9 differentiation. We wanted to make sure that 10 they were maintained, which is the second 11 condition. 12 And on the applicant's proposed plans, 13 they're proposing to replicate these features 14 right here (indicating) on the fascia detail, 15 and we are conditioning that the ones on the 16 middle columns are not replicated -- there are 17 plans in your packet; hopefully you can find 18 them -- that they're only replicated on the end 19 so that it differentiates it a little bit and 20 doesn't create a conjectural feature with 21 matching the front porch. 22 Did you have any questions about that 23 before I go on to the windows? 24 MS. MANSFIELD: What is not -- could you 25 go over that last part again? What -- when you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 111 1 said "this", it seemed to circle the -- 2 MS. PAULL: This right here (indicating). 3 MS. MANSFIELD: That little square detail? 4 MS. PAULL: Yes. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: But what are -- so they -- 6 you said they are replicating it in some parts 7 and not in others and I'm not sure I follow. 8 MS. PAULL: Okay. There's -- it would be 9 similar -- if you -- do you have the plans? 10 Are you looking at the plans in front of you, 11 of the -- straight across the front elevation 12 or the rear -- I'm going to come show you my 13 copy that I've marked up. 14 This (indicating) shows the two center 15 circles would not be replicated -- or square 16 features would not be replicated, but on the 17 ends it would be so it wouldn't perfectly 18 replicate the front, but it still relates to 19 the structure. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. 21 Thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Continue. 23 MS. PAULL: Are you ready? 24 I wanted to make sure everybody was clear, 25 that you didn't have any questions. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 112 1 The other part of the application is to 2 replace jalousie windows that are on the rear 3 elevation. They are currently right here 4 (indicating). This was a picture that was 5 taken in front of the neighbor's house looking 6 back, because it is a corner lot. And these 7 windows were installed, not original to the 8 structure. They were -- originally, it was a 9 screen porch, according to the original plans, 10 which the applicant had. 11 And when people come forward with a porch 12 enclosure -- granted, this does have jalousie 13 windows in it, but we always look to maintain 14 that visual openness and to not make it look 15 like it was always originally enclosed in part 16 of the historic structure. 17 The applicant is proposing to have art 18 glass windows that replicate the existing art 19 glass windows on the structure to be installed 20 in -- and replace the jalousie windows. 21 Staff is conditioning that they go back 22 with a plain, solid casement or a fixed window 23 to maintain that sense of openness and to not 24 be a conjectural feature because these windows 25 are so unique and the openings were Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 113 1 historically a porch. We really want to 2 maintain that sense of openness as possible and 3 not make it look like a conjectural feature, 4 replicating these very unique windows. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: So on the other side of 6 the building there aren't any other windows on 7 that porch? They've been closed in at some 8 point? 9 MS. PAULL: Correct. 10 It was the owner's testimony that the -- a 11 previous owner had some alterations done, I 12 believe, for an elevator lift or some sort of 13 lift on that side of the structure, and so the 14 windows on that side -- or the openings on that 15 side, around here (indicating), were enclosed, 16 which I couldn't get a photograph of without 17 going on their property, but these windows are 18 still open. And as far as we know, they have 19 their historic -- yes, that's the side where 20 they were previously (indicating). 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you have this photo, 22 Sam (indicating). 23 MS. PAULL: Some of those photos were 24 taken by our inspector. I didn't have them. I 25 couldn't get them for some -- I didn't have Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 114 1 copies of them on our drive for some reason. 2 These are the historic art glass windows, so 3 you can see where they are existing. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions of 5 staff? 6 MS. MANSFIELD: Next to the -- on the 7 right-hand side, is that a grouping of four 8 casements or two? 9 MS. PAULL: Here (indicating)? 10 MS. MANSFIELD: No. Right. 11 MS. PAULL: Here (indicating)? 12 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah. 13 MS. PAULL: That's the jalousies. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: But they're going to be -- 15 MS. PAULL: There would be four. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: They're putting in four? 17 MS. PAULL: Yes, as far as I know. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: And then the middle 19 windows, the -- what are those? 20 MS. PAULL: These (indicating? 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah. 22 MS. PAULL: I believe that they're 23 casements. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: Original with the stained 25 glass pattern? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 115 1 MS. PAULL: As far as I know. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: And how is that in 3 proportion to the windows that are going to be 4 replaced? I mean, if you take two of those 5 casements, does that match the size of that 6 middle window? 7 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I don't 8 know. You would have to ask the applicant. 9 They should be able to explain it better. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 11 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 12 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public 13 hearing. 14 Would the applicant like to come forward? 15 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 16 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name and address 17 and be sworn in. 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Charles Gillman, 1804 19 Elizabeth Place, Jacksonville, Florida 32205. 20 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 21 hand for me, please. 22 MR. GILLMAN: (Complies.) 23 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 24 testimony you are about to give will be the 25 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 116 1 truth? 2 MR. GILLMAN: I do. 3 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 MR. GILLMAN: As far as some of the 5 questions that were raised, should I maybe 6 address those first about the -- I haven't -- a 7 Xerox of the original, which may -- shows a 8 little bit of that rear elevation. It shows 9 the window layout. Are you interested in that? 10 MS. MANSFIELD: You'd have to let us keep 11 it if you gave it to us. 12 MR. GILLMAN: Yeah. Here, these are 13 the -- 14 MS. PAULL: You've got to speak into the 15 microphone, please. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. GILLMAN: Here's the four -- 18 originally they were screened, and these are 19 the jalousie windows now (indicating). We have 20 two windows here side by side, and the 21 cutoff -- you have a thinner window, a 22 larger -- just -- I don't know if it's called a 23 single or -- single or double hung, and then on 24 the other side of that is another one this size 25 (indicating). So this is three window bank Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 117 1 [sic], two, and the four, so they don't 2 actually match. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, first off, 4 Mr. Gillman, do -- are you in favor or do you 5 dispute any of the staff recommendations? 6 MR. GILLMAN: I dispute the window 7 recommendation and I'm sort of on the fence 8 about the roof. I have a question about the 9 roof -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 11 MR. GILLMAN: -- that maybe I could get a 12 little clarification. The roof is not so much 13 of an issue for me. 14 Samantha, we -- and thank you for all your 15 help on this. It's been a great education. 16 You sent me an e-mail today about setting 17 in the roof line. I think you said one foot 18 would be sufficient, and my only concern with 19 that is that -- on the terrace we have that 20 knee wall and the columns are going to come 21 right up off the top of the knee wall. It 22 would, I think, look very bad otherwise, and I 23 just am a little concerned that the -- the way 24 it's going to look with the roof one foot 25 shorter sitting on top of those columns, and I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 118 1 think it's -- 2 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, it's not 3 that you need to step it in, just like -- if it 4 sticks out three-and-a-half feet to match with 5 the cantilevered canopy, it's not that you need 6 to step it in to two-and-a-half; it's that 7 you'd separate it from the actual cantilevered 8 canopy so they don't abut each other. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The existing 10 cantilevered canopy, it goes all -- does it 11 wrap the corner now? 12 MR. GILLMAN: Yes. 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It does? 14 MR. GILLMAN: Yes. 15 That's the rear elevation. It wraps all 16 the way around the right corner. And my 17 original intention was just to tie into the 18 corner and pull. 19 And I'm a little bit confused with what 20 you were just saying, Samantha. On that 21 corner, I thought you wanted me to come in 22 about a foot. I don't -- that's not correct? 23 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I don't 24 think we're quite on the same page. 25 It's just that they don't attach, so that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 119 1 it doesn't -- 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So do you want him to 3 have, like, a step -- a notch out or 4 something -- because -- I think what he's 5 saying, it's there -- it's coming all the way 6 to that corner right now, so either it gets 7 bigger or smaller, so they don't line up, 8 right, the overhang on the porch? 9 MS. PAULL: We were just concerned that 10 the original ones weren't maintained, the 11 original lines, and that it looked like it was 12 all one continuous theme. 13 I would have to talk with the rest of the 14 staff to clarify that. What we had originally 15 talked about was having a space between the 16 porch roof and the cantilevered canopy so 17 you'd -- when you were looking at the side 18 elevation, you'd see a space like that 19 (indicating) -- 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Which would be great if 21 the -- 22 MS. PAULL: -- not this way, if that makes 23 sense. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Virtually a notch -- 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: A notch might do it. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 120 1 Is that -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- between the new and the 3 old. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Because at first I 5 thought -- and the old and then start the porch 6 roof, but there's not enough space to do that 7 because it's already -- they're overlapping. 8 Let me ask you a question since you -- 9 whoever put your drawings together, and staff 10 can comment on this comment, but the front 11 porch has this really great overhang and these 12 big, massive piers go straight up into the 13 ceiling over, you know, the soffit plane and 14 there's no beam definition, and you have 15 included a beam in your rear porch, and I just 16 wanted to know why. I think it's one of the 17 really interesting visual characteristics of 18 the front porch, that this has no beam 19 expressed, and I'm talking about your -- 20 MR. GILLMAN: Well, I -- that may be an 21 interpretation of those drawings. My 22 interpretations -- I see the beams. I'm 23 looking at that as carpentry work, that 24 internal framing, that I will wrap in such a 25 way as to have the -- a smooth ceiling, no Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 121 1 exposed beams. That -- it will be a stucco 2 finish, hopefully. And it would be the same 3 design as the front porch, per, I believe, your 4 question. 5 MR. THOMPSON: What she's saying, there's 6 a -- at the top of each of your columns on your 7 new addition there's a beam that goes across 8 there on the drawings, yet on the front, the 9 column goes right into the ceiling of the -- 10 MR. GILLMAN: Can I walk over and take 11 a -- 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You've designated this 14 beam to be expressed here and it's one of the 15 really great features of the front. 16 MR. GILLMAN: Yes. That's a good point. 17 I would not want to do it as drawn. We would 18 resubmit. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You want to try to 20 match -- 21 MR. GILLMAN: Yes. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I would agree, and I 23 think you have probably -- you've had a pretty 24 massive beam in there, so you might be able to 25 shorten that up and -- you know, that 14 inches Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 122 1 may be over -- but you might be able to conceal 2 it with essentially the same, you know, layout 3 of the ceiling, but I don't know. I -- 4 MR. GILLMAN: Yeah, this one -- this is a 5 drawing that's been through several drafts and 6 this issue would go through another draft and 7 it would be removed. I would want to match the 8 front if you guys -- 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 THE CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible.) 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Do you guys agree with 12 that? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 14 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, I have one 15 really quick question for the applicant. 16 Do all the cantilevered canopies currently 17 that go across the back and wrap around that 18 corner, are they all the same depth? 19 MR. GILLMAN: Yes. 20 MS. PAULL: Okay. 21 MR. GILLMAN: And to answer another 22 question, it shows up on that Xerox copy. You 23 can see the little -- yeah, you can see the 24 little pieces of cantilever. That's the 25 original drawing. I can't say they built it, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 123 1 but assuming they built to plan, that's what 2 they built. And then when they modified the 3 kitchen, they just came all across. 4 For clarification on this roof, on the 5 notch, is that possibly what you're talking 6 about? Could you draw it? I don't see it. 7 MS. PAULL: It would just be a space 8 between -- you could take this back to this 9 wall (indicating), but there would be a space 10 between these, but we weren't -- or just a 11 small amount of space. 12 But, you know, I think when we had 13 originally looked at these, we were under the 14 impression that that was not completely 15 wrapping around the corner currently and that 16 it was differentiated, that it terminated at 17 that corner, so I think that there was some 18 miscommunication when we were originally -- 19 because we didn't have all the photographs that 20 I had gotten from you when we were originally 21 looking at this. 22 So with that space being completely 23 already altered, I -- we're okay with removing 24 that condition from the porch. 25 MR. GILLMAN: So I can just line them up? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 124 1 MS. PAULL: Yeah, because it is -- it has 2 already been altered, and so we are, on staff, 3 on record, are recommending that the third be 4 removed, the third condition under the porch 5 roof request. 6 MR. GILLMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 And as far as the -- the jalousie windows, 8 I believe I understand the position of the 9 historic commission, that -- I think you guys 10 refer to it as a conjecture. You don't want 11 someone to assume that -- if we put in the art 12 glass to match, that it was original. And I 13 guess a few points on this are that the left 14 elevation, rear, which used to have the 15 screens, has been totally filled in. It's been 16 a heated and cooled space for I don't know how 17 many decades. 18 When the house was originally built, there 19 was the technological limitation of no 20 air-conditioner and, hence, this porch. And I 21 think if there had been AC, it would have 22 been -- they would have matched the rest of the 23 house. 24 I was, you know, a layperson to this. I 25 was looking at some of the resources that you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 125 1 guys review to make your decision, and I found 2 here -- I'll just read it. The Secretary of 3 the Interior standards for the treatment of 4 historic properties, and it cites one of its 5 main purposes is the preservation of a 6 building's distinguishing character, and 7 character refers to all those visual aspects 8 and physical features that comprise the 9 appearance of every historic building. 10 So I'm kind of backing away from the small 11 details that guide your decisions and looking 12 at it as a -- you know, a more -- in a more 13 general way and -- so how could we best 14 maintain the historic character of this 15 building? 16 You know, when I'm outside doing yard 17 work, people stop by and shout all the time, 18 they say, you know, "great house." The one 19 thing I hear consistently is the windows, the 20 windows, the windows. And, you know, they're 21 beautiful. It hooked my wife and I, and I 22 think that's one of the main reasons we bought 23 the house a few years ago. And I just think 24 that any -- it's just going to look awfully 25 strange. You know, anybody walking down the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 126 1 street from this perspective -- this is 2 St. Johns Avenue perspective, walking down the 3 sidewalk. You're just going to look up there 4 and -- whether, you know, it's someone like me, 5 just your average person or someone who's got a 6 lot of academic, architectural credentials, 7 it's just going to look a little strange. I 8 know that's not a great legal argument, but 9 that is the result. And so I wonder what 10 happens to the, you know, architectural 11 integrity or the historic character of the 12 building if we put in just these fixed-glass 13 windows. 14 So I submit -- just to sum up a little bit 15 here -- what we have right now with the 16 jalousie windows, they're historically 17 inaccurate to the home and they're very ugly. 18 Your recommendation -- or staff's 19 recommendation is to put in solid glass, which, 20 again, historically inaccurate and in my 21 opinion not the most attractive way to go, and 22 so what I'm proposing -- also historically 23 inaccurate, but it just looks a whole lot 24 better. Again, not a great legal argument, but 25 when it comes to the integrity of our Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 127 1 neighborhood, I think it does make a 2 difference. 3 And I think that's -- that's all I have. 4 It's just going to look good or it's not going 5 to look good. 6 Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else here 8 to speak? 9 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello. 11 My name is Kirk Reber. I represent 12 Creative Glass Works. I do leaded glass work. 13 I'm an accredited studio through the Stained 14 Glass Association of America. 15 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 16 hand for me, please. 17 MR. REBER: (Complies.) 18 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 19 testimony you are about to give will be the 20 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 21 truth? 22 MR. REBER: I do. 23 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 24 MR. REBER: I'd like to address the 25 committee and just make a point in regards to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 128 1 the integrity of the -- the house itself. 2 I've been doing stained glass or leaded 3 glass or -- as a matter of fact, stained glass 4 is a misnomer. Most people don't understand 5 that, but, at any rate, leaded glass -- and 6 this is a fine representation of Prairie-style 7 windows. 8 I think the thing that rings most clearly 9 in my mind about this house -- I've done work 10 for this house. I did work on this house for 11 the previous owners as well, unbeknownst to the 12 new owners, but at any rate, that is -- that -- 13 virtually every window in this house, including 14 the interior doors, the French doors, are all 15 leaded glass. 16 Now, without question, that qualifies it 17 as a distinctive architectural feature, and I 18 think that -- to put blank, clear glass 19 windows, whether they, you know, are trying to 20 make a statement -- I mean, this is not -- 21 we're not living under a microscope here. 22 We're not in a museum. It just doesn't look 23 good, and that's just my opinion. 24 That's all I have to say about that, and 25 I'd be happy to answer any questions if anybody Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 129 1 has any. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR. REBER: Thank you. 4 (Mr. Gillman approaches the podium.) 5 MR. GILLMAN: I forgot one thing I wanted 6 to add. 7 Also, from speaking with Samantha, I 8 believe -- correct me if I'm wrong, but if I 9 put in the fixed-glass windows, I can then go 10 behind with, say, a stencil and, like, spray 11 paint to mimic a stained glass -- I mean, the 12 leaded glass of the rest of the house. So, in 13 effect, from the street, it looks like it 14 matches. 15 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, to clarify 16 what I said -- I didn't say spray paint or 17 apply something to the interior. I was talking 18 about having a window, stained glass, art 19 glass, whatnot, that can be hung from the 20 inside, so it would -- you would still 21 potentially visually have that appeal from the 22 interior, but you wouldn't actually have the 23 window installed. 24 We have had people who have wanted to 25 install stained glass windows in bathrooms or Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 130 1 kitchens before and what they do is they put 2 hooks on it and you hang it behind, on the 3 interior of the window, versus actually 4 installing it. 5 MR. GILLMAN. Right. So by whatever 6 method, you end up with a faux leaded glass 7 window look, and I just ask you to consider 8 that under the guidelines of integrity. 9 Thank you. 10 (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.) 11 MS. GODWIN: On the one item, the roof 12 over the rear porch, our committee just simply 13 said that we wanted to see it distinguished as 14 a new feature, according to the guidelines, and 15 there are many ways that you could do that, and 16 the staff suggestion would be one of those 17 ways. 18 In regards to the windows, the committee 19 sort of struggled with this and we went back 20 and forth because, you know, on one hand, the 21 way that the original porch is set up, it does 22 look like -- you know, with the banding all the 23 way across, there is some consistency there, 24 and -- and also because of the alterations that 25 have occurred over the years. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 131 1 The conclusion was, though, that it would 2 be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to 3 match the lead glass windows as well as the 4 opening pattern and therefore they felt that -- 5 the majority felt that it would be a 6 conjectural feature, so they agreed with the 7 staff recommendation. They also added that -- 8 that -- with the casements, you might add a 9 Bermuda-style shutter over those casements as 10 an alternative. 11 Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Would anyone else like to 13 speak to this item? 14 MR. REBER: Can I make one more comment? 15 (Mr. Reber approaches the podium.) 16 MR. REBER: Just to clarify, any design 17 can be manufactured to make it look as if it 18 were original or as if it weren't original. 19 Furthermore, in the proposal that I had 20 given to Mr. Gillman in regards to these 21 windows, I had proposed to demarcate the 22 windows as such so that if they were, in the 23 future, to be ever restored, they would be 24 identified as new windows, not original to the 25 home. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 132 1 That's all. 2 Thank you. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? 4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, we'll close 6 the public hearing. 7 MR. THOMPSON: I'd like to make a 8 statement. 9 I feel very strongly about this. I think 10 that -- you know, a house like this, with a -- 11 you know, a very -- I'll call them 12 distinguished architecture and distinguished 13 windows, I think that -- you know, a house like 14 this, besides being the pride of the people who 15 own it, it's also the pride of the 16 neighborhood, and I'd say that 99-and-a-half 17 percent of the people who walk by and look at 18 this house probably are not going to be 19 architects and they're probably not necessarily 20 going to be people who are -- I don't want to 21 say anything about historically sensitive, but 22 I think if you replace those windows with 23 anything except the leaded type glass, I think 24 it would be a mistake. I think the general 25 public would look at this and say, "Gee, they Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 133 1 had such nice windows. I guess they just 2 didn't have the money to put back the ones that 3 they really want." I think the general public 4 would feel that way. They'd look at that and 5 say, "Gosh, it's too bad they didn't put in the 6 windows to match the rest of them." I can 7 almost guarantee that. I just feel strongly 8 about that. I think it would be a huge mistake 9 not to replace that opening with windows that 10 match the existing ones. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: I agree with you on that, 12 not because they should be able to do that in 13 all cases with porch enclosures, but because 14 this house had been altered so far back ago 15 that it doesn't look like a porch. It looks 16 like a room of a house. 17 MR. THOMPSON: I'm not talking about 18 (inaudible) -- 19 (Simultaneous speaking.) 20 MS. MANSFIELD: No. Right. 21 And so to -- I mean, I understand, and I 22 want to defend the staff a bit on this too 23 because I don't think the homeowner understands 24 the thought process. 25 I mean, the Secretary of Interior Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 134 1 regulations are used, they're adopted in our 2 ordinance, and one of the principles of it is 3 that you don't add conjectural features. So 4 it's not a matter of whether or not -- all 5 things being equal, it's not a matter of 6 whether it looks better; it's a matter of 7 preserving the historic appearance. And so 8 when you usually enclose a porch, you would 9 like a sheet of glass because that keeps it 10 looking like a porch, which, to me, is the 11 differentiating feature in this application 12 because even if you just put a sheet of glass, 13 it doesn't look like a porch. 14 And so one of the other tenets of the 15 Secretary of Interior standards is that 16 alterations in the past can achieve their own 17 significance, and I think that that's what 18 we're dealing with here because -- because it 19 just doesn't look like a porch. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, and I think the 21 alteration was made early enough where the 22 standard may be that it would have been 23 infilled in the manner appropriate to its time, 24 which would have been a matching window to the 25 main structure. That's how I look at these Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 135 1 kind of things. If that porch were infilled in 2 1936, it would have been done with art glass, 3 so that's how I'd like to see it done. 4 MS. SIMON: I agree. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And I guess on the roof, 6 what we'd like to advise the applicant is to -- 7 you said you are removing the condition for the 8 differentiating -- the -- 9 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, yes. 10 It's condition number 3, that they don't 11 tie in, that they don't attach. But because 12 that space has already been altered similar to 13 the porch, it would not be differentiating the 14 historic from the existing as it's all kind of 15 blended in together currently. So to have the 16 applicant just do it as he has proposed, to 17 build the roof as he has proposed, however, 18 keeping the first and second conditions, the 19 second being that we want to see them 20 maintained, we want to make sure that they stay 21 there and have that explicitly spelled out, 22 that they're not removed in this process. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: You know, I was looking at 24 the front -- one of the front elevations, 25 and -- this one (indicating). Can we put that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 136 1 one up on the screen? Do you have this one? 2 MS. PAULL: Maybe. 3 Like I said, there were a number of 4 pictures that are -- this -- 5 MS. MANSFIELD: That one might work. 6 MS. PAULL: Okay. 7 MS. MANSFIELD: You can see actually that 8 there is a differentiation between the front 9 porch and the side window. There's a gap 10 there. So the argument could be made that -- 11 by having a continuous line on the porch in the 12 back, that it actually does differentiate from 13 the front. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And I will go back to 16 that. I would like to advise the applicant on 17 the actual framing design of the porch 18 addition. I think it's important to mimic the 19 soffit column layout of the front porch. I 20 know it's a new element, but I think that it -- 21 it should be in the same general structural 22 integrity as the front porch. 23 Okay. I'll make a motion, then. 24 I move that we approve COA-11-077, 1804 25 Elizabeth Place. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 137 1 On the first request to replace the 2 jalousie windows on the upper rear elevation, 3 that that is approved with conditions 2, 3, and 4 4. And we're going to modify condition 1 to 5 allow for historic art glass in the window 6 replacement -- art -- window replacement in 7 that location. 8 On the second request to construct a roof 9 over the rear porch, we're going to approve 10 that with conditions 1 and 2, and I would like 11 to add a suggestion that the framing design of 12 the rear porch be made to match the detailing 13 of the front porch with a column/beam 14 connection. 15 MR. THOMPSON: Can I ask something? 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yes. 17 MR. THOMPSON: I don't think it should be 18 a suggestion. I think it should be a 19 condition. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. We'll make that 21 condition 3. 22 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, you said 23 the framing design to match column/beam 24 connections? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 138 1 MS. PAULL: Okay. I just want to make 2 sure I have it written correct. I understand 3 what you're saying. I just want to make sure I 4 had it written correct. 5 MR. THOMPSON: And one clarification, when 6 that -- this is not part of the condition. 7 When that is achieved, the thin profile of 8 the fascia has to be maintained. You can't end 9 up with a -- to eliminate that beam, you can't 10 make a big, wide fascia. It has got to be a 11 nice, thin fascia like the (inaudible). 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: We can -- I can add that 13 to that third condition, that the fascia 14 profile remain matching to the rest of the 15 structure. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And have a final design 18 for that rear porch be submitted to staff for 19 review and approval. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: We have motion and we have 21 a second. 22 MR. TEAL: Clarification on that -- the 23 new, I guess, first condition regarding the 24 allowance for historic art glass. Was that -- 25 I guess the way that it was written in the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 139 1 report, it says the applicant is proposing to 2 install custom fabricated art glass windows 3 that replicate the original art glass windows 4 that are currently on the structure. Was that 5 the intent? 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: (Nods head.) 7 MR. TEAL: Okay. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion. 9 I'm looking for a second. 10 MR. THOMPSON: Second. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 12 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the 14 motion. 15 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 17 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have 19 approved COA-11-077 with conditions. 20 We will now move on to work in violation, 21 COA-11-068, 1725 Laura Street North. 22 MR. McEACHIN: This restoration has been 23 going on for quite a while. They have several 24 COAs. In 2006, was -- a window replacement COA 25 was approved by the commission. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 140 1 In 2007, a request was made by the 2 applicant to reopen the upper porch, and I 3 don't believe I have a photograph. 4 No, I don't. 5 The upper porch was totally enclosed and 6 part of one of the bays of the lower porch was 7 enclosed. At the time that we approved it, the 8 applicant stated -- and we -- the reason we did 9 it administratively was that the columns were 10 still intact and that the intent was to remove 11 the material between the columns and then -- 12 leave the columns as well as leave the brick 13 piers and the steps, as well as leave the 14 remaining of the siding on the back wall and 15 the different openings, the two windows and the 16 door opening. 17 As work progressed, it was recommended 18 by -- to the applicant, I think by the 19 architect that was working with him, that the 20 columns and the piers and the cheek walls and 21 the steps were sufficiently deteriorated to 22 warrant replacement, so he went ahead and 23 replaced them without modifying the existing 24 COA or without getting a new COA. 25 Now, the columns do mimic -- or do Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 141 1 replicate the original ones as best we can tell 2 from the Florida master site file. They are a 3 polyurethane material; however, the piers and 4 the cheek walls were completely rebuilt. The 5 cheek walls originally were brick and the piers 6 also were brick and they were taken down and 7 rebuilt to the exact size and height of the 8 original piers, except -- instead of using 9 brick, they used concrete block. 10 We also approved a COA in 2008 for 11 replacing 25 percent or less of the siding, and 12 he wound up -- he had to replace a lot more, as 13 you can see in some of these other COAs, but he 14 is using a product that's matching the 15 original. 16 The piers -- here's a close-up of the 17 piers itself (indicating). 18 The thing about it is we did not -- of 19 course by not amending the COA or getting a new 20 COA, we wasn't [sic] sure of the condition of 21 the piers and the columns to warrant -- to 22 determine whether they needed to be replaced at 23 all, but they -- but we will agree that in the 24 case of the columns that he did use a product 25 matching the original, however, use of concrete Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 142 1 blocks on the piers and on the cheek walls 2 rather than brick. 3 On the upstairs -- if I can find it. On 4 the upstairs, since it was enclosed, we don't 5 have real definitive information about exactly 6 what the openings were, but we do know for a 7 fact there were three openings, and our 8 interpretation is that the opening into the 9 balcony on the second floor -- actually, the 10 doorway actually lined up on the door below 11 it -- you can almost see sort of where it was 12 enclosed -- and then there were two windows. 13 The applicant has changed that. He's 14 enclosed where that doorway was and modified 15 that central window into a doorway and then, of 16 course, maintained the other window. 17 So, in reviewing the work that he's done, 18 we are recommending approval with the following 19 conditions: that the new piers and cheek walls 20 be rebuilt using brick instead of concrete 21 block; that the doorway with the transom on the 22 upper porch be relocated to its original side 23 on the -- on the south end, above the doorway 24 on the first floor; and that the doorway that 25 he has put in be changed back to a window; the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 143 1 lower porch rail should be a traditional height 2 of 32 inches or less. 3 He did not -- have selected a product for 4 the new door on the upstairs, the actual door 5 itself, and we asked that that be reviewed and 6 approved by our department before it's 7 purchased and installed. 8 Since this work is technically in 9 violation of Chapter 307, we also put the 10 condition as -- that any work that the 11 commission should approve with conditions or 12 deny, that it be corrected within 90 days of 13 the date of the final order. 14 And then the other request was replacement 15 of over 25 percent of the original siding, and 16 we did recommend approval of that, although we 17 did not have a chance to make a determination 18 of the condition of the siding. 19 And that's my report. We do have somebody 20 here to speak on this, the applicant, and I'll 21 be happy to answer any questions. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions of staff? 23 MS. SIMON: I do. I have a question. 24 Something you didn't bring up that to me 25 is the most noticeable -- and I remember when Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 144 1 this work was first being done -- the windows 2 were relocated on the bottom floor. There were 3 two windows there. You can tell that that 4 window doesn't fit there; it's too small; it 5 wasn't originally there, and that was when all 6 the siding was replaced to change the windows 7 and the door configuration, so how did y'all 8 feel about that bottom front window? 9 MR. McEACHIN: I think the reason why we 10 probably didn't notice that was because that 11 bay was actually enclosed as well, so we had no 12 sense of what the original configuration was or 13 the fenestration pattern on that lower floor. 14 MS. SIMON: You can see it once they took 15 the porch off, and then it was -- it was there 16 and then all of a sudden they were out and 17 moved and new siding was there, but you can 18 tell that that's not -- I mean, I don't think 19 you can find another example of that. It's 20 definitely not -- the proportion is not right 21 at all. 22 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah, I see what you're 23 saying. It's like that window would match up 24 with the one under it and then another window 25 would match up with the one in the center. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 145 1 MS. SIMON: It's very typical all 2 throughout to see two windows taller, more 3 vertically placed -- 4 MR. McEACHIN: I understand your point. 5 MS. SIMON: -- instead of that one with 6 all the -- swath of siding. 7 MR. McEACHIN: And I think the applicant 8 will address that. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: In that photo, if you just 10 compare it to the side window, it's 11 substantially smaller. 12 MS. SIMON: And that's what would have 13 been there, the bigger windows on the front, 14 the same size as the side windows. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. The applicant is 16 here. We'll open it to a public hearing. 17 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Stacey Poole, 26 West 19 7th Street. 20 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 21 hand for me, please. 22 MR. POOLE: (Complies.) 23 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 24 testimony you are about to give will be the 25 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 146 1 truth? 2 MR. POOLE: Yes. 3 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 MR. POOLE: Well, I guess we'll deal with 5 the first issue, which was -- I don't want to 6 call it the first issue, but the downstairs 7 windows. 8 This project -- this property used to be 9 a -- had went through some transformation in 10 the '80s and the '90s, and it was a boarding 11 home, so all of that was closed in, the top -- 12 upstairs and down, and actually there was a 13 door there where that window was on the bottom. 14 Actually, that window would be the 15 original window because it is a smaller window. 16 It's a more narrow window than the other 17 windows that's there. That was a door, if not 18 a window, but I -- I don't remember exactly 19 because when you open it up, it had already 20 been through so many transformations that you 21 really couldn't tell. 22 So basically we put the window there based 23 on what was that opening that was there at the 24 time, based on the transformations that took 25 place. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 147 1 Now, upstairs, right, we did move -- there 2 was a door, but based on our floor plans, where 3 that door was, that's above -- that would have 4 been above the downstairs door. The floor plan 5 made that room over there and that area a 6 walk-in closet, so we did change that, but at 7 the time -- but if we need to make changes and 8 move that back, I have no problem with that and 9 we'll change the floor plans. 10 Also, had extensive termite damage and we 11 have a record where basically we did lay the 12 abatement and had a -- had it dealt with as far 13 as termites or whatever, so a lot of that did 14 need to be replaced because a lot of the siding 15 did need to be replaced at the time because it 16 didn't match what was -- once we started 17 pulling things away, you start tearing the old 18 wood, you know, it starts splitting, next thing 19 you know -- we were actually patching up the 20 original wood with, you know, with wood glue, 21 wood putty, and it just didn't work. 22 You know, so it was best that -- while we 23 were at it, just pull it out and replace it, so 24 it became an ongoing project. And once you 25 pulled one piece of wood out, there was another Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 148 1 piece of wood that you damaged, basically. So 2 that's what happened on the -- with the siding. 3 I have no problem with the 4 recommendations, but my one issue would be -- I 5 have a copy from my architect. I'm not the 6 specialty [sic] at this, but basically when the 7 architect came in, he -- his company did the 8 inspection, and he stated that the columns, the 9 footers and the posts was deteriorated, it 10 needed to be replaced, and I followed suit. 11 Now, what I didn't do was -- I just 12 thought it was all included in the porch, so -- 13 I'm not very versed at this, but at the end of 14 the day -- you can see from my history, I did 15 my best to make contact with Joel and the 16 historical preservation on COAs and things of 17 that sort. 18 But we did use block, but all that -- that 19 front porch, the brick, everything that was 20 there was heavily deteriorated, and that's -- 21 and I have a note here from the plans that we 22 submitted to Joel McEachin here, stating 23 that -- in the memo section, that it was 24 deteriorated. And that was their job as an 25 architect, and the engineer. So they checked Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 149 1 that. That's the recommendation. I followed 2 up. They felt like it wasn't structurally safe 3 to keep it that way. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: No one is questioning that. 5 MR. POOLE: Okay. So I just want to make 6 sure I have this here, and I'm going to leave 7 this with you (indicating). 8 Now, as far as pulling the -- the blocks 9 out, meaning the piers, I think my only 10 recommendation is can we do something else 11 since we're talking about a facade, based on 12 the look, keeping it historic? 13 This has been approved by the City as far 14 as inspectors and things of that sort, which 15 makes it -- safe and sound structure. What I 16 wouldn't mind doing is -- or recommending is 17 that -- if we can encase it with the brick, may 18 increase the size a little, meaning the 19 16-by-16 piers, but at the end of the day, it 20 will still give it that facade, historical 21 preservation look, based on the history, you 22 know, of the building, and that's the same with 23 the check [sic] walls as well. 24 And that's basically it for me. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 150 1 MR. POOLE: Any questions? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for the 3 applicant? 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you have any kind of 5 photographic documentation of the size of the 6 piers that were torn out and replaced? 7 MR. POOLE: No. I actually don't have any 8 photographic documentation of the sides of the 9 piers. They should probably have a history of 10 the building, if it wasn't encased with 11 anything at the time, but they should -- I 12 mean, the historical preservation should have 13 something. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for the 15 applicant? 16 MS. MANSFIELD: I guess I'm not sure from 17 what you said. Are you okay with -- you're 18 okay with moving the door upstairs -- 19 MR. POOLE: I'm okay with the 20 recommendations, yes. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: With the windows and 22 doors, what they -- what the staff recommended? 23 MR. POOLE: Correct. If that means me 24 including another window and the door upstairs, 25 that's fine. But downstairs, we can -- if we Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 151 1 can leave that as is, that would be fine. 2 And then also with the piers and the check 3 walls, if we can encase it with the brick to 4 give it that facade, that look of -- that 5 historical look that it originally had. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: I might suggest that -- if 7 you were to wrap those columns with real brick 8 or a full brick, a modular brick, that they 9 would become too large. However, what I might 10 offer as a suggestion is that, if you wrap 11 those with what we call soaps, which is a 12 regular brick but they're very thin, almost the 13 thickness of a tile, you can -- and they make 14 corner pieces so it looks like a whole brick. 15 That -- to me, that would be a suitable 16 compromise that would give us the exact look 17 that we're looking for without you having to 18 rip that out and completely rebuild it. You 19 just lay them up like tile -- 20 MR. POOLE: Correct. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: -- but they are, indeed, 22 real brick. 23 MR. THOMPSON: What would you do with the 24 cap? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it looks like there's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 152 1 enough overhang on that cap that -- those soaps 2 are -- 3 MR. THOMPSON: Just leave them? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 5 MR. POOLE: But the caps are -- the caps 6 are the same -- they're basically the same size 7 and made of the same material that there was 8 initially. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It's going to be 10 painted, I imagine, these piers; is that -- 11 MR. POOLE: The piers can be painted. 12 You know, they have been painted. You 13 know, a lot of the brick in the -- in the -- in 14 the historical area of Springfield, a lot of 15 the brick gets painted anyway. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: It looks from this color 17 photograph that Joel just gave me that it had a 18 cement cap originally, but it also has a 19 smaller square, so it's not just a plain square 20 cap. It has, like, a smaller cap on it that 21 the column sits on. 22 What you have now is -- 23 MR. POOLE: Can I see that? 24 MS. MANSFIELD: You can't really see the 25 column detail of this photo very well. That Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 153 1 top cap, is that also rusticated? 2 MR. POOLE: Right. There's another cap 3 that goes on the base. 4 Joel, can you go to the next picture where 5 you have the actual columns on there? 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The column itself has 7 like a rectangular base. 8 MR. POOLE: Yeah, it has a base on -- it 9 has a base on top of the column. 10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It -- well, where is it? 12 You can see it on the last one. 13 MR. POOLE: Yeah, it's there. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you intend on putting 15 the capitals and bases on all those columns? 16 MR. POOLE: Yes. That comes with the 17 columns, the cap and bases. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: It just seemed like the 19 original cap to those -- the cement part of the 20 columns does have an extra detail that -- 21 (Simultaneous speaking.) 22 THE CHAIRMAN: What it looks like to me is 23 that the -- the plinth of the base on what was 24 there was extended out because what you're 25 really seeing is the first half round, the oval Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 154 1 of -- of the base, and what they have done is 2 they pulled out the plinth that it sits on out 3 to line up with the brick of the pier -- 4 (Simultaneous speaking.) 5 MS. MANSFIELD: So it's actually a detail 6 of the base that was painted to match the 7 masonry? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, but it's -- but it's 9 been exaggerated. It's not pure. 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, probably, you 11 know, if it rotted out, that's sort of the 12 (inaudible) that (inaudible) -- put a block and 13 put it in and -- 14 MR. POOLE: But the base and the cap is a 15 replica of what was there initially, just a 16 newer material. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: I just wanted to make sure 18 that the cap to the -- to that cement was not 19 rusticated, that it was a plain cement face. 20 MR. POOLE: No. It was, the cap was. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Was, but is it now? 22 MR. POOLE: Yes, it is. It's a cement 23 face. That's the cap on top of the block, then 24 you have the base -- the base on top of the 25 cap, which gives you that look. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 155 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think the (inaudible). 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I mean, the -- with what 4 I'm seeing there, I think that cap will work. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, I think it will too. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: It seems like using the 7 tile like brick veneer would work, but they 8 have to use the corner pieces to make it look 9 like -- 10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Otherwise, it 12 would (inaudible) -- 13 (Simultaneous speaking.) 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 15 MR. POOLE: Okay. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Now, are we going to -- 18 before -- are we going to address this window 19 that's a smaller scale? Are you willing to 20 make that -- you agreed to all the conditions 21 the staff -- the commission did discuss, the 22 fact that that window seems out of scale? 23 MR. POOLE: Now, what are you talking 24 about, increasing the size of that window? 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: (Nods head.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 156 1 MR. POOLE: Because, basically, I -- I 2 don't think there's a layout because it was all 3 encased in -- of that downstairs having two 4 windows. 5 MS. SIMON: I watched that being done, 6 sir. I saw it when it was open, what was 7 there, and I watched it being closed in with 8 the siding and the smaller window. I just want 9 that on the record. 10 MR. POOLE: Right. You can put it on the 11 record. 12 Basically, just like I said, I don't think 13 we have any evidence of that. I'm not -- hey, 14 I did what I needed to do. I followed protocol 15 like I should, outside of this area here for 16 the piers, if that's an issue -- 17 MS. SIMON: I don't think that if that -- 18 I don't know that that was protocol because I 19 would think that that was something that we 20 would have it -- had to approve. It would have 21 come in front of us and we would approve -- 22 MR. POOLE: I said I followed protocol 23 outside of that, meaning the piers and the 24 check walls. You know, I did my COAs. 25 MS. SIMON: What I'm saying is if you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 157 1 would have come to us and gotten a COA for 2 changes, we would have had to approve 3 everything that was there. 4 MR. POOLE: For changes for -- what 5 changes are we talking about specifically? 6 MS. SIMON: As far as windows, doors. 7 Obviously, the windows have been changed, 8 there's new windows there, they're smaller. I 9 saw it being done. You can actually see where 10 that siding has been, you know -- 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The windows in this 12 photograph, it's sort of in the same location. 13 MS. SIMON: Well, that's a newer photo. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: No. This is still the old 15 brick piers. 16 MS. SIMON: Yeah, that was before he added 17 the piers, but that was after the porches were 18 open and that other work was done. The siding, 19 the windows, the railings on the top, all of 20 that was already done and then the porch 21 columns -- and then the piers were changed. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Count the rows of siding 23 underneath that window. I think there are 24 fewer than currently exist. I think you can 25 see where the siding has been -- like two rows Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 158 1 of siding are underneath that front window now 2 in the front. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, there's an equivalent 4 of like four and a half -- 5 MR. POOLE: But as I stated also, that was 6 a door because that -- that was a rooming home. 7 One door went upstairs, the other door went to 8 the downstairs area. They were rooming 9 homes -- they were boarding homes. That's what 10 it was in the '80s and '90s. 11 MS. SIMON: We understand that, but 12 that's -- we're saying if -- if you had come -- 13 if someone comes with a COA to change that 14 facade, we would have to approve that and we 15 would make recommendations of what would have 16 been typical on the historic homes. That small 17 one window placed there with the siding -- the 18 expanses of siding on either side is not a 19 typical replication of what would have been 20 there historically. 21 MR. POOLE: All right. But where would 22 you get the record from if we have no record 23 now, speaking of this. If it was -- we would 24 have left it as a door because that's what I've 25 known it to be. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 159 1 MS. SIMON: You could probably find -- 2 there's similar homes exactly like this all 3 throughout Springfield. It's -- probably every 4 other one looks like this layout with the three 5 columns -- 6 MR. POOLE: What I'm telling you is -- 7 go ahead. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: This picture that we're 9 looking at before the changes, it's a window, 10 it's not a door. We're looking at the bottom 11 left window. 12 And the other thing is -- also, is that 13 you're -- in these old houses -- you know, I 14 hate to say "never," but the windows on the 15 front are going to be at least the size of the 16 windows in the rest of the house and -- and a 17 lot of times they will be bigger. 18 MR. POOLE: I'm not arguing that point. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: These windows are smaller 20 and they have been modified since the color 21 photograph of before the modifications were 22 done. 23 MR. POOLE: When we opened it up, it was a 24 door. When you open it up, you had two doors. 25 When you came in on the porch, you had two Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 160 1 doors. 2 If you have a history of this property -- 3 when -- so when I got it, basically what I did 4 was just make that door a window. That's what 5 it was, it was a door. We -- and that was back 6 in the late '90s when we first -- probably 7 around the time we first purchased the 8 building. 9 MS. SIMON: I'm not going to say there 10 weren't two doors, but there was definitely 11 not -- there was a window there. 12 MR. POOLE: I'm not saying that there 13 probably wasn't a window there neither. 14 MS. SIMON: Right. Well, that's what I'm 15 saying. There may have been two doors, but 16 there was a window too. There wasn't just two 17 doors. I mean, I watched that being closed up. 18 I don't live very far from that. 19 MR. POOLE: There was -- when we first 20 purchased the property -- 21 MS. SIMON: Yeah, it was all closed. The 22 porches were closed. 23 (Simultaneous speaking.) 24 MR. POOLE: Right, it was a rooming home, 25 it was a door. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 161 1 (Simultaneous speaking.) 2 MS. SIMON: But that was still altered. 3 Once the porches were open, that facade was 4 altered. 5 MR. POOLE: I -- no. 6 MS. SIMON: I watched it being done. 7 MR. POOLE: Right. Well, you watched it. 8 I did it. And, you know, it's yours against 9 mine now, but the thing is that -- whatever you 10 guys decide, that's what we'll do, but I'm 11 telling you, when I purchased the property -- 12 like I said, it was a rooming home. You had 13 one door that went upstairs, one door that went 14 downstairs to the two different -- it split 15 up -- it split the building up, and basically 16 what I did is made it a window. 17 Now, if there's something here where we 18 have to go with two windows and match those 19 windows up, if that's what needs to be done, 20 that's fine, but there's no -- when I purchased 21 the property, there was no history of that and 22 you have no history of that on record, I think, 23 showing that there was two windows behind 24 there. 25 MR. THOMPSON: I don't think she's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 162 1 suggesting you put two windows there. I think 2 we're saying that perhaps that window should be 3 a larger window to match the -- 4 (Simultaneous speaking.) 5 MR. POOLE: Increase the size. Not a 6 problem. 7 MR. THOMPSON: If you look at the windows 8 on the side of the house -- 9 MR. POOLE: Not a problem. 10 MR. THOMPSON: Isn't that what you're -- 11 MS. SIMON: Aesthetically -- I don't know 12 if you're planning on selling the house or what 13 you're doing, but it will increase the value of 14 the house to do it in a historic fashion. Two 15 would be better. I mean, if you're not 16 planning on selling it and you're planning on 17 living there, there's -- that's your -- 18 MR. POOLE: Right. 19 If we need to -- if you want to make a 20 recommendation, condition for increasing the 21 size of the window, we can increase the size of 22 the window. All right? And we go with that. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there anyone else 24 to speak to this? 25 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 163 1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I haven't been sworn in 2 yet. 3 THE REPORTER: I need your name and 4 address, please. 5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Brenda Boydston, 1321 6 North Main Street. 7 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 8 hand for me, please. 9 MS. BOYDSTON: (Complies.) 10 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 11 testimony you are about to give will be the 12 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 13 truth? 14 MS. BOYDSTON: I do. 15 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 16 MS. BOYDSTON: First, we -- we did not 17 have a full enough file or information at the 18 time Design Review met to make any 19 recommendation, and that is something that we 20 need to see addressed, is that it does seem 21 often that -- and I know timing and everyone is 22 pushed, but for us to be able to give input, we 23 need to have more documentation. 24 I see the same thing happening sometimes 25 when we come here too, that the applications Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 164 1 aren't -- are rushed or, you know, trying to 2 get -- accommodate, I'm sure, the applicant and 3 everyone's schedules, and so that is something 4 that's been requested by our members, that we 5 really would like to see more -- because they 6 take their time out to come to the meetings, 7 and so maybe they need to be delayed, have the 8 applications delayed if they -- if the 9 materials -- they -- if staff doesn't get 10 enough materials in time for us, then put them 11 off another month or something because this has 12 happened kind of consistently. 13 I also want to draw your attention to -- 14 there is a picture in your file, about nine 15 pages in, that shows the closed-in porches 16 upstairs and downstairs. It's a bad picture. 17 I'm sorry I didn't bring my good ones. It's a 18 bad picture, but we really want to draw 19 attention to the fact -- and commend Mr. Poole 20 for opening up the upstairs. 21 Yeah, that picture. And that picture -- 22 you-all addressed the issue about -- it was 23 brick piers and so forth. I just wanted to 24 make sure that you saw that it was very much 25 closed in and the opening up is a real Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 165 1 positive. 2 And then the house next door -- if we had 3 enough information about what the 4 recommendations were going to be from staff and 5 so forth, we could have gone and gotten 6 pictures of the houses to show you because the 7 one right next door to it is quite similar. 8 There's one more thing I was going to say 9 to -- and now I'm drawing a total blank. 10 Oh, yeah. Sorry. Building inspections, 11 that was something that we also noticed because 12 we could see the box showing that it had 13 permits, and so that -- this is another example 14 of where one department -- City department 15 isn't, you know, coinciding with the other or 16 getting information back and forth, so -- and 17 listening to Mr. Poole too, he said that he got 18 approval -- he -- permits were pulled and 19 inspections were done for that -- his work, so 20 he, you know, felt like he was accommodating 21 the City. So we need to find a way to also 22 correct that from happening, that all the 23 departments are communicating with each other. 24 Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 166 1 Anyone else to speak to this item? 2 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close 4 the public hearing. 5 Any further discussion? 6 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I'd be happy to entertain a 8 motion. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: Joel, what's the date of 10 the photo you just passed out? 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: This shows that window, 12 right? You can see where it might have been a 13 door. 14 MR. McEACHIN: I do not know the date of 15 that photograph. I did show it to Mr. Poole 16 and he -- clearly you can see how large that 17 window was. And, you know, he understands 18 that's the dimension that it should go back to. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Just make that a 20 condition to somebody's motion, please, 21 somebody. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'll make a motion that 23 we approve COA-11-068 for modifications to the 24 front porch with the staff conditions as 25 listed. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 167 1 On the condition on the new piers, we are 2 going to allow that a -- a thin brick product 3 be an acceptable mitigation for that condition. 4 The second condition is going to be in 5 place as written, the third condition, the 6 fourth, and the fifth, and we're going to add a 7 sixth condition that the window in the 8 left-hand bay of the first floor be widened to 9 a scale appropriate to the design of the house. 10 And the final size of that window will be 11 submitted to staff for review and approval. 12 MR. McEACHIN: Did you -- I think you 13 didn't address the cheek walls or the steps. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I didn't. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: It's not just widened, 16 it's the height of the window because I think 17 one of the photographs showed a lot fewer rows 18 of siding underneath it than currently exists. 19 It would have been a taller window. 20 (Simultaneous speaking.) 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. You know, I'm not 22 as comfortable with that condition because 23 sometimes there are things happening on the 24 inside that -- if -- I think if we can make it 25 wider -- we can make it taller. You know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 168 1 let's let the final design be reviewed and 2 approved by staff. A window that is larger 3 than what is currently on the elevation. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Because if it's made more 5 horizontal without being made vertical, it 6 loses that vertical aspect of it. I mean, 7 people come wanting, like, to shorten windows 8 for bed walls and TVs all the time, but on the 9 front of the house, it -- I just can't imagine 10 it. 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, you know, you've 12 got a 32-inch rail out there in front. I -- to 13 me, I'm not -- all right. We'll add that, if 14 that's -- is that the consensus of the 15 commission? 16 (Simultaneous speaking.) 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: All right. That the -- 18 that window align with the predominant head and 19 sill heights from the first floor windows and 20 be increased in width, and the final size of 21 that window to be reviewed by staff. 22 And on the second request to replace over 23 25 percent of the original siding, that's 24 approved as per staff recommendation. 25 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. Going back to the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 169 1 cheek walls on the steps -- 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think we would like to 3 see the brick steps on the cheek wall -- the 4 steps are -- what are the steps? They're just 5 stone, kind of -- 6 MR. McEACHIN: Concrete. 7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, they're fine. I 9 would think that would be fine. If you correct 10 the cheek wall -- 11 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Poole is shaking his 12 head that they're poured concrete. 13 MR. ALLMAND: Second. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 15 MR. TEAL: Can I get clarification on 16 that? 17 You mentioned that -- as far as the brick 18 goes, the veneer. Do you want that as 19 rusticated? 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The brick? No. 21 MR. TEAL: No? 22 Smooth? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, no. I mean, it will 24 have a (inaudible), like common brick. 25 MR. TEAL: I'm thinking more of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 170 1 texture of the brick itself. I mean, because 2 technically if you just say "brick," he could 3 put red brick there. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: That's true. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: Was there any existing 6 brick in the -- 7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the brick that we're 9 seeing in the pictures was relatively smooth. 10 It was not heavily textured. 11 MR. TEAL: Okay. And then as far as the 12 fourth condition, which is the upper door -- 13 the condition reads, "The proposed upper front 14 door will be reviewed and approved by staff." 15 Can you give them a little bit of direction as 16 far as what you want that door to look like? 17 MR. ALLMAND: Put it back where it was. 18 MR. TEAL: I mean, as far as the style of 19 the door itself. 20 MR. McEACHIN: The door on the downstairs 21 is a half light, as you can see here 22 (indicating). 23 (Simultaneous speaking.) 24 MS. MANSFIELD: That's what I would -- 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, something similar. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 171 1 MR. TEAL: Okay. So to match in style the 2 lower door? 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And it could be a 4 three-quarter -- you know -- I mean, I think 5 you have a little flexibility with that. 6 MR. TEAL: And then on the lower porch 7 window, you had said something about aligning 8 the sill height? 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The head and the sill 10 height. 11 MR. TEAL: Head and sill height? 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The top and bottom with 13 the -- some of them will be shorter, but the 14 predominant head and sill heights on the first 15 floor. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, there's a window 17 around the corner that appears to be in the 18 same room, so you would want to match that. 19 MR. TEAL: Okay. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 21 We have a motion and second. All those in 22 favor, aye. 23 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 25 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 172 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, by your 2 action, you have approved COA-11-068 with 3 conditions. 4 Now we are going to move -- take one item 5 out of order. We were going to look at the 6 request for landmark designation for Panama 7 Park Elementary School. 8 MR. McEACHIN: Well, Mr. Poole just left 9 the room -- left the building. 10 I'll just make it real, real quick. 11 This school was surplused by the school 12 system and Mr. Poole is associated with a group 13 that bought it. It's used as a charter school 14 and they want to landmark it. They have the 15 potentiality to use certain kinds of incentives 16 since they are a not-for-profit organization. 17 And, of course, this is the famous Panama 18 Park Elementary School, Prairie-style school, 19 in the Panama Park area. And, of course, the 20 distinctive things is the eagles at the very 21 top. 22 So it's just informational, to let you 23 know that this is going to be pursued, and he's 24 going to sponsor it and hopefully you will be 25 seeing it in the coming weeks. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 173 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 2 All right. Now we'll move on to the 3 opinions of appropriateness, Lee High School, 4 1200 South McDuff Avenue. 5 MS. SHEPPARD: I'm not going to do much 6 talking. We can go through the slides just to 7 kind of familiarize you with the site. 8 We already had one COA for new 9 construction, I guess, to the left of the 10 school, but this is more of a -- kind of a 11 grand scheme or grand plan for the overall 12 campus, and they're going to be touching on 13 both alterations to the historic school 14 building as well as some of the new buildings 15 that might be coming in the future. 16 In your information that's in your book, 17 you will see there's actual elevations for the 18 proposed changes for the historic school. 19 There's a site plan that shows where some new 20 buildings will be located and some changes that 21 would be occurring on the site, but there's 22 not, like, elevations or anything for those 23 buildings at this time. 24 So just to kind of go through the photos 25 real quick, this is the front of the building Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 174 1 (indicating) that faces McDuff Avenue, and 2 these are some pictures looking at the left 3 side, which is -- probably got the most 4 integrity of the sides. You can see the arched 5 windows there. And that's, I believe, largely 6 being preserved in their plans. 7 Most of the windows on the structure -- I 8 think all of the windows on the structure have 9 been replaced and there is an intention to go 10 back to the historic design, so that's 11 exciting. 12 To the left -- or, I'm sorry, this is the 13 side -- the parking lot still to the south or 14 to the right-hand side of the school, and this 15 is kind of showing where that new construction 16 that just recently came through us this year is 17 going to be located. 18 And then here (indicating) is the north 19 elevation. And you can see in the plans that 20 are in your information -- this is probably 21 where there's some pretty serious alterations 22 that are occurring, but you can see in the 23 photo, this is -- there's been previous 24 alterations to this elevation, at least at the 25 first floor level. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 175 1 This is a close-up (indicating), and that 2 kind of shows you that side of the campus. 3 There's a number of buildings that are in that 4 area, and the representative can probably touch 5 on how this particular photo will change 6 according to the latest plan as far as new 7 construction and stuff, might be able to point 8 out -- I'm not sure if it will really impact 9 the visibility of this side. Certainly there 10 is a drop-off area that's shown on the site 11 plan that would probably keep it open. 12 And, again, that's just a close-up of the 13 elevation, that north side that seems to be 14 most affected by the project. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Would the applicants 16 like to come forward and make any kind of a 17 presentation? 18 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening. 20 It's Jeff Rolland, 1650 Prudential Drive. 21 If we could start with the site plan. 22 Let's talk about the project scope. 23 As Lisa said, it's a large project. It's 24 about a $28-and-a-half million project. The 25 primary intent is to go into the main historic Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 176 1 building, gut it, and redo the interiors, but 2 we have an awful lot of other work going on. 3 There are two new buildings and there are two 4 additions to the gymnasium building. In 5 addition to that, there is a wealth of site 6 improvements that we're going to be doing on 7 site. 8 If you look at the main historic building, 9 you've got that as the rectangular building 10 with a courtyard in the center, at the bottom 11 of the site plan there. McDuff runs along the 12 very bottom of that slide. 13 One of the main things we're going to be 14 doing is -- to the right hand of the main 15 historic building, we're going to be cutting 16 in -- we're going to be cutting in a new parent 17 drop-off and visitor parking areas. 18 From some of the slides that Lisa showed 19 early on, you saw the facade along McDuff 20 Street [sic]. There were two entrances, two 21 front doors to the McDuff Street side, and 22 we're going to change that. The new front door 23 is going to be on the right-hand side, opposite 24 this drop-off area. 25 We're not doing very much to the exterior Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 177 1 of the building except to take out the existing 2 replacement windows and go back with new 3 windows, energy efficient, and they'll be the 4 nine-over-nine windows that were installed in 5 the building originally, metal and glass, not 6 wood and glass. 7 On the north facade, the right-hand 8 facade, we're going to tear away about three or 9 four different additions that were done at the 10 first floor. The cafeteria is located on that 11 end right now. Added on to that for kitchen 12 space and textbook storage space, they added on 13 a one-story boys locker room, a lot of work 14 there that was unhappily done. 15 The two new buildings that we're adding, a 16 two-story building, right here (indicating), 17 right on the access -- the central access of 18 the new parent drop-off. That two-story 19 building is a cafeteria on the first floor and 20 band and -- of course, on the second floor. 21 And then the trapezoidal building here 22 (indicating) is a one-story field house 23 building for all their athletic facilities, 24 their football and soccer and lacrosse and 25 track facilities. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 178 1 The two additions that we're doing are the 2 gymnasium -- the existing gymnasium. We're 3 going to renovate and add on a PE locker room 4 and we're going to add on a central energy 5 plant over here (indicating). 6 Any questions so far? 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Just -- have you given us 8 plans for the new buildings as well or -- 9 MR. ROLLAND: Yes. Not elevations. 10 You see in some of the renderings the 11 prospective use that we gave you? There are a 12 couple of views of the north facade of the main 13 building and the east facade of the two-story 14 cafeteria, and then we have one view from 15 the -- the bottom view there is the view from 16 the football field back to the cafeteria. It's 17 a view from here (indicating), looking back 18 this way. The top view is the view of the new 19 facade for the main entrance and the two-story 20 cafeteria building. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: So you're proposing to 22 move the main entrance from the front to the 23 side of the building? 24 MR. ROLLAND: Yes. 25 The fact that they have the two identical Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 179 1 front doors leads to a lot of confusion. We 2 did not want to put the parent drop-off loop 3 and the visitor parking in front of the 4 building, so we moved it to the north side of 5 the building to leave that front lawn -- the 6 formal front lawn and that front facade intact. 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Why can't they -- do they 8 have to be dropped off at the front door? 9 MR. ROLLAND: Well, yeah. The truth is -- 10 I mean, if I'm a parent and I'm coming to meet 11 with the staff, meet with the principal or the 12 assistant principal or one of the -- or if I 13 just need to talk to the bookkeeper, I need to 14 be able to go to the main front office. And 15 the way it's arranged now, there's no real 16 visitor parking, and you need to accommodate 17 that. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: But, I mean, in other 19 buildings like the Prime Osborn center, they 20 put a new front door on the old back of the 21 building. The first time I went to go to that 22 building, I drove up to the front, not 23 realizing it. It just -- I'm going to have a 24 real problem about moving a front door because 25 it's such an important aspect of the building, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 180 1 but maybe we can talk about all the project and 2 stuff first -- 3 MR. ROLLAND: Yeah. We're not changing 4 the entrance facade, the McDuff Street facade. 5 We're changing the point where you gain access. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: You change the orientation 7 of the building -- I mean, we have new 8 buildings built -- we require that the front 9 entrance be on the main street side as opposed 10 to on the side of a building. And it seems 11 like in this case, we're taking the main 12 entrance from the front and moving the emphasis 13 of the building to the side, which is the exact 14 opposite of what we have others do. 15 MR. ROLLAND: Well, what we're doing by 16 creating that parent drop-off loop and by 17 creating the visitor parking there, that is 18 becoming the new front door. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: And that was -- it 20 appeared that there's some existing parking 21 there now, but there are a lot of trees, and 22 when the -- when the proposal for the bus 23 drop-off area was brought in, one of my 24 comments at that point was the fact that it was 25 all cemented with no greenery in there, and it Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 181 1 was explained to us that it was required in 2 order to pack in as many buses as possible, but 3 now we're going to wind up flanking the 4 building with two slabs of concrete because the 5 trees are taken out and the greenery is taken 6 out on the right-hand side of the building as 7 well. 8 MR. ROLLAND: Well, actually, the existing 9 area is pretty much all paved. The area that 10 the visitor drop-off -- visitor parking is 11 pretty much all paved right now. It's been 12 done over the years in kind of a haphazard way, 13 but essentially it's a serving -- service dock 14 right now. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Some of the photos that 16 were shown to us originally, the existing -- it 17 looked like there were some pretty substantial 18 oak trees on the front of the property. 19 MR. ROLLAND: Yeah. We're not going to be 20 affecting those at all. We're going to be 21 adding to the planting, but the -- the big oaks 22 along the side there -- right here (indicating) 23 we have some great oaks and we have some nice 24 trees over here as well. Those we'll all be 25 leaving intact. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 182 1 MS. MANSFIELD: So there aren't any 2 existing oaks by that -- where the parking lot 3 is -- 4 MR. ROLLAND: No. This area is all paved 5 (indicating). 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: If you (inaudible) like 7 a Google aerial -- and you can see it's -- it 8 looks paved and -- do you have one in the slide 9 presentation -- 10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 11 MR. ROLLAND: I don't know. 12 MS. SHEPPARD: I have one in -- 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I mean, if there's a 14 couple of trees and if they're not 15 significant -- 16 MR. ROLLAND: One of the other things that 17 we're going to be doing is improving on the 18 landscaping. You see all these chain-link 19 fences that are running down McDuff? It's our 20 plan to come back with ornamental metal fencing 21 there and back that metal fencing by thick 22 plantings, hollies and Italian cypress. It's 23 green -- it's not very attractive there. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: One of the other things 25 that I couldn't quite get a handle on when I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 183 1 was looking at the paper documents before the 2 meeting was your elevations showing your 3 demolition plan. I can't really tell looking 4 at the photos what's being demolished and 5 what's not, and I was hoping that you could run 6 through that and tell us because I -- it says 7 overall demolition elevations, south. And if 8 you could -- do you have those on your slides 9 that you could show us what is planned on being 10 demolished? 11 MR. ROLLAND: I'm not sure of all -- all 12 these demo drawings and new plan drawings made 13 it into your packet of information, but here is 14 a -- 15 MS. MANSFIELD: My concern is -- I'm just 16 looking at this one, it's labeled D-2.02 on the 17 bottom right that says, "overall demolition 18 elevations, south," but I -- I can't tell from 19 looking at it -- and it might just be that I'm 20 not trained in reading these types of drawings. 21 To me, it just shows the whole elevation 22 that -- it really doesn't mean you intend on 23 demolishing the whole elevation, so -- 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think it's taking out 25 the windows and replacing them. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 184 1 MR. ROLLAND: Yeah. When you look at a 2 demo drawing like that, it -- when it's been 3 reduced, it's difficult to really understand 4 what you're looking at, but this is the 5 original footprint of the building. 6 When the building was first built, the 7 gymnasium was located on the first floor, so 8 this red line was the original footprint -- 9 this red line was the original footprint of the 10 building back in 1927. Since then, they had 11 added on incrementally in at least three or 12 four, possibly even five different stages, and 13 we're going to peel off those three or four or 14 five add-ons to get back to the original 15 footprint of the building. 16 This originally was the main entrance to 17 the gymnasium (indicating). The gymnasium sat 18 in this location right here, kind of 19 symmetrically with the auditorium on the other 20 side. Lisa showed you the three arched windows 21 in the auditorium. That's on the south side of 22 that building. So we will peel all that first 23 floor construction away and we'll take out all 24 the existing windows that are on that facade. 25 So that's the extent of the demolition on Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 185 1 that facade. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: So that facade there, is 3 it possible to just run through what the 4 proposed demolitions are in general? 5 MR. ROLLAND: Sure. 6 The only exterior demolition that we would 7 have on the bottom facade -- this is the McDuff 8 facade (indicating). The only thing we're 9 doing here is taking out the replacement 10 windows, coming back with new replacement 11 windows, and then tuckpointing the entire 12 facade. The condition of the mortar in the 13 brick and the cast stone is -- has 14 deteriorated. That's a hundred years old. 15 On the rear facade -- this is facing the 16 football field -- there's a -- some buildings 17 in between. It's the same thing. We're taking 18 out the windows and tuckpointing the masonry. 19 This is the north facade (indicating). 20 This is the former gymnasium. You see on the 21 second floor these square top windows? Those 22 were two-story-tall windows that gave daylight 23 into the gymnasium. We're going to keep that 24 same shape and use that as our new front door. 25 The one-story construction infill here Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 186 1 (indicating) and the one-story construction 2 infill there was new construction, and that is 3 what we'll peel away. 4 The first floor on the left-hand side 5 there is the original girls locker room, and 6 currently it's a kitchen for the cafeteria. 7 Does that help? 8 MS. MANSFIELD: It does. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. ROLLAND: Good. 11 Any other questions? 12 MS. SHEPPARD: I have a question if 13 somebody else doesn't. 14 For the -- going back to the front door 15 issue, the -- I know there's no exterior 16 changes, but will the doors still function? 17 And what is the space that's going to be on 18 that front facade on the first floor? 19 MR. ROLLAND: That space, all along the 20 front facade, is going to be the new media 21 center. And, yes, those doors are still going 22 to remain operable. That's part of our egress 23 pattern. We'll keep the porches there and 24 we'll keep the small masonry railings up there. 25 We're going to dress up the landscaping in Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 187 1 the front of it. Right now it's a little bit 2 haphazard, so we may take out some pine trees 3 and go with a more formal symmetrical 4 landscaping approach to that front lawn. 5 MS. SHEPPARD: But as far as -- so it 6 would be egress but not access. So if there 7 was any kind of, I mean, event in the library 8 itself or the media center, as it's called, 9 they wouldn't be able to go in those doors? 10 MR. ROLLAND: That's correct. 11 MS. SHEPPARD: They'd have to come in the 12 front and then -- 13 MR. ROLLAND: Right. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Is there any possibility 15 of landscaping in this new parking lot area? 16 MR. ROLLAND: Absolutely, yeah. 17 One of the things -- 18 MS. MANSFIELD: Because it's pretty stark 19 the way the plans and the elevations here show, 20 just concrete. 21 MR. ROLLAND: Yeah. 22 One of the things we tried to do is to 23 create more of a campus quadrangle feel to it 24 with the -- the north facade of the historic 25 building and the two-story facade of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 188 1 cafeteria building, we've got two nice edges 2 there and we'll have a nice urban plaza in 3 front of that for the kids to hang out and feel 4 at home. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: And all these things that 6 say "Lee," are those permanent things or are 7 they -- 8 MR. ROLLAND: No. Those are banners. 9 It's not architecture. 10 MR. THOMPSON: Jennifer, your concern 11 about, you know, changing the front entrance 12 from the front to the side, I mean, the -- on 13 the McDuff Street side, it's not like you have 14 a main, prominent, central entrance on the 15 building that you're taking away. It's a -- 16 subtle entry doors there and, you know, 17 there's -- there's probably a lot of design 18 philosophy that caused that. You know, I'd 19 be -- I don't think it alters the appearance of 20 the building. I think it would probably be -- 21 maintains the -- 22 MS. MANSFIELD: It doesn't alter the 23 front, but it certainly alters the side and 24 creates the side as the more prominent side of 25 the building when it never historically was. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 189 1 MR. THOMPSON: But it -- but there may 2 be -- if you have ever been down McDuff when 3 school is starting down there, there may be 4 some advantage to having masses of young people 5 going into another place other than the front 6 of the building. I don't know. I don't -- I'm 7 not terribly familiar with it, but I -- I'm not 8 sure -- I mean, to me, anyway, there may be a 9 design philosophy that caused that that could 10 be very justified. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: From a historic 12 preservation sense? 13 MR. THOMPSON: Yeah. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: I mean, I understand what 15 he's saying about wanting -- 16 (Simultaneous speaking.) 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, I think -- 18 MS. MANSFIELD: -- drop-off zones, but -- 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think it's a pretty 20 clever solution. They preserved the two 21 existing original facades that have the most 22 integrity and the one that was already kind of 23 corrupted through history is the one with -- 24 they're doing their intervention. And, to me, 25 it looks very successful because, you know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 190 1 you're -- you're going to have a place to 2 arrive. 3 And having gone -- I've been in and out of 4 several high schools in the last month 5 interviewing and discussing with kids, and it's 6 a very difficult thing to get yourself in a 7 parking lot, see all these covered walkways, 8 where do I go? And I think -- I think this is 9 very successful in -- if you're coming to the 10 school for the first time or you're -- or 11 you're just trying to create a place for the 12 students that is an identifiable public space, 13 this seems to me to be a successful solution. 14 And I -- you know, I mean, we can't freeze 15 the building and rely on those front entrances 16 where there's no place to park and no place to, 17 you know, come as a visitor. I mean, it -- 18 this, to me -- this, to me, works. I like it. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: It's just that -- if you 20 have -- I mean, when people come to this 21 commission about building a new building and 22 they propose -- it's usually in a commercial 23 building. And in order to maximize that 24 commercial building, they propose it to be 25 sideways on the lot, and we say no, you have to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 191 1 face the street. 2 And it's such a huge thing -- not -- I 3 mean, I -- I appreciate the fact that the 4 alterations are being made on the side that's 5 already been altered and that the front is not 6 being altered, but it just seems such a 7 dramatic change to the whole orientation of the 8 building to direct the interest to a 9 nonhistoric entrance. 10 And I understand that you want a drop-off, 11 but I don't understand why that can't all exist 12 without denigrating the existing -- the 13 historic front of the building. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I don't think it does. 15 MR. THOMPSON: I don't think -- 16 MS. MANSFIELD: It makes the front of the 17 building a minor aspect of the design because 18 the major aspect is this new -- 19 (Simultaneous speaking.) 20 MR. THOMPSON: I think the final -- 21 MS. MANSFIELD: -- door. 22 MR. THOMPSON: I think the final design of 23 the front is treated with some sensitivity. I 24 mean, it's got green grass and it's got 25 sidewalks. It's still leading to the doors, I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 192 1 think, but it's not obstructed by the sorts of 2 things that you need to bring, you know, 5- or 3 600 kids into the school within a half hour's 4 time. I find it a nice design solution myself. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I must admit, when I first 6 looked at the drawings I was somewhat unnerved 7 by the fact that I perceived all of the 8 historical fabric being removed from that north 9 side of the building, so that's why I had Lisa 10 go over and take a picture. And what I am 11 seeing is that there was really little 12 architectural detail and fabric on that side of 13 the building. It's kind of the back side of 14 the building, and so I am certainly much less 15 bothered by what I see now than I did initially 16 until I realized what's really there. 17 And I don't know that -- I don't really -- 18 like the other architects on the commission, I 19 really don't have a problem with what they're 20 doing or the fact that the front door is now 21 currently -- or what is currently a service end 22 of the building. 23 I think the front, because it's on the -- 24 the (inaudible) appear to be -- and the access 25 to the visitor drop-off is going to be somewhat Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 193 1 blocked by the other buildings of the campus, 2 like the pool house and the pool and the -- and 3 the other buildings to the north. So I don't 4 know -- and with some landscaping -- I don't 5 know that that's going to appear to be the 6 predominant -- 7 MS. MANSFIELD: I think the front becomes 8 the side and -- I mean, because -- I mean, 9 what's been said is that you want to know where 10 to go, so you make it prominent so that people 11 know where to go. Well, that relegates the 12 former front as -- to a new side of the 13 building, and so -- 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, let me ask you 15 this question: Would -- if you need to 16 centralize the entrance for security and 17 functional purposes, what's the higher 18 standard? Do you manipulate the McDuff Street 19 elevation in order to accomplish that and have 20 a drop-off zone out there or do you do what 21 they did? 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I think a lot of it 23 depends on how you're designing the interior 24 space because you can have, you know, a primary 25 entrance through one of the two or both the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 194 1 two. It's how you design the interior space -- 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, you can't -- 3 MS. MANSFIELD: -- to address that. 4 (Simultaneous speaking.) 5 MS. MANSFIELD: Obviously -- 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- (inaudible) the 7 administration offices. You know, I mean, 8 if -- if there's a check-in for visitors, it's 9 got be the one entrance. 10 MR. ROLLAND: Can I interrupt for just a 11 minute? 12 (Simultaneous speaking.) 13 MS. MANSFIELD: -- (inaudible) the 14 students and stuff too. I, obviously, wouldn't 15 advocate putting something completely new and 16 different and reworking the whole front of the 17 building in order to have this main entrance 18 like this. I mean, the solution is not to move 19 this to the front, but I'm just expressing my 20 concern, that this is contrary to other things 21 that we've said here as far as where the 22 prominent entrance of the building is. 23 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do you need me to swear 25 in? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 195 1 THE REPORTER: I just need your name and 2 address, please. 3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Andy Eckert, 1701 4 Prudential Drive, Jacksonville. 5 I'm the executive director of facilities 6 for the Duval school district. We've been 7 working on this project for quite a number of 8 years, at least five years now, trying to get 9 money for it. And the money is not the real 10 driver for the design that we've got. 11 The state law requires us to have a 12 separate bus and parent drop-off. They can't 13 be next to each other, and we really don't have 14 any way to -- as you know, to put the buses on 15 the other side. Well, the buses on the other 16 side, that's actually the entrance to the 17 school, so the parents will drop off their kids 18 and the kids will walk up and they'll actually 19 go in the south side of the -- of the school 20 itself. So the south side is acting as the 21 entrance to the school, not the two main ones 22 in the front. 23 What we've done is we've flipped it from 24 the south to the north to get that separation 25 of parents. And, as you know, when you do come Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 196 1 down McDuff, all the parents are parked on 2 McDuff as it is now, so the service entrance -- 3 what we've done is we've pushed the service to 4 the back for the cafeteria and we placed the 5 parent drop-off, minimal as it is, in the 6 front. 7 Our intent is -- eventually that swimming 8 pool goes away and that becomes a wider, larger 9 parking area that would have more landscaping 10 and access features, so when you're coming down 11 McDuff, you would get that wide-open effect and 12 not that swimming pool with the fence and the 13 ditches and everything else that are in front 14 of that school. So that's really the intent. 15 The other big aspect -- we did look at 16 bringing that parking -- or the parent drop-off 17 to the front of the school, which you have to 18 do. You have got to provide a close access 19 point and a covered walkway for students to get 20 into the school. If we did that in the front, 21 it would totally destroy the facade in the 22 front of the school itself by putting a long 23 parent loop in there with a drop-off point to 24 that, or if they were to be dropped off on the 25 side, they would have to walk in front of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 197 1 school. We would have to have some covered 2 walkway and the ADA accessibility on the front 3 would be -- it would really prohibit us from 4 using that as a -- as the spot for the kids 5 coming in to the school. 6 As you know, on the south side of the 7 school we've got that large, long ramp that is 8 the ADA accessibility. So when we put the ADA 9 on here on this side (indicating), we will have 10 both ends of the building -- it meets our code 11 now, but we will have both sides ADA accessible 12 and it also provides the security aspects that 13 was mentioned earlier, that the parents come 14 in, there is a secure place they can park, be 15 off the street, walk their kids in, and it -- 16 it provides all the requirements that we have 17 by state law. There's some special things that 18 we have to follow to make sure that the kids 19 are secure and that they get in the school 20 without walking through the rain. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Comments and questions? 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Are you also asking us to 23 comment about the other buildings you're 24 building? Are you going to come back for that 25 or -- I'm not really sure what we're being Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 198 1 asked tonight. 2 MR. ECKERT: I just want to address this 3 large feature. Certainly anything that we need 4 to address now, the buildings and the other 5 parts of that, we'd love to hear that. 6 MR. ROLLAND: That's right. 7 The new buildings and the additions are 8 fairly modest buildings. From a design 9 standpoint, they're -- the facades are going to 10 take the lead from the new facade that we're 11 putting on the north facade of the main 12 building, but they're going to be very subdued. 13 And we're here tonight with just a 14 conceptual design. We'll be developing that 15 and we'll be back to you likely next month for 16 the final COA. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The first phase is this 18 entrance, addition? 19 MR. ROLLAND: No. Actually, the first 20 phase is to do the new construction, the 21 cafeteria building and the field house building 22 and the locker, and the reason for that is to 23 be able to vacate the main building and move 24 into the new facilities so that the contractor 25 can, in the second phase, go in and gut the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 199 1 interior and rebuild the interior. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's logical. 3 Okay. 4 MR. ROLLAND: All right. Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 6 MS. SHEPPARD: The staff has just a couple 7 of things to say as far as the design. 8 Actually, I like -- I pulled this 9 (indicating) up because in looking at the -- 10 the black and white -- or just the regular 11 elevation, I wasn't sure if -- if all of that 12 was being treated as kind of a glassed, very 13 modern look, but this kind of helps clarify 14 that. 15 The only thing that I might suggest -- or 16 that we were talking about just now is -- 17 instead of having those, I guess, pilasters 18 divided or have the -- the seam matching the 19 glass, a -- it might be nice to see those kind 20 of more traditional as far as a solid versus -- 21 it just draws attention to all the lines of the 22 windows and, historically, those would have 23 been more flat spaces, kind of like what's 24 above. You know, you don't -- you're not 25 seeing the line associated with this upper and Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 200 1 lower sash; it's just solid. 2 And you can't tell so much in these 3 renderings, but in the drawing you certainly 4 see that there's some type of delineation that 5 kind of mimics the window pattern and -- 6 MR. THOMPSON: Is that going to be 7 precast? 8 MR. ROLLAND: Yes. 9 The existing materials up there are a cast 10 stone, a brick -- a brick with a very broad 11 range to it and a lovely, heavy texture to it 12 that we're having a lot of trouble matching and 13 that they've had, historically, trouble 14 matching over the years, and then the glass is 15 the other. 16 Lisa, with respect to the fenestration, 17 the mullion pattern, we're going to take our 18 lead from the three arched windows on the 19 opposite side of the building. Those are 20 fairly large panes of glass, and we'll rely on 21 that to give us some direction -- 22 MS. SHEPPARD: It wasn't so much the panes 23 of glass as much as the -- the division of it 24 is also replicated in the pilasters that 25 separate it. That's -- yeah, I'm not sure that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 201 1 the division -- I mean, yeah, I think that 2 makes a lot of sense, to kind of go by the 3 other windows on the building as far as that 4 division, but -- 5 One other thing that is kind of nice, even 6 though this is going to be the main entry, is 7 that it's -- it appears to be kind of recessed 8 to the two one-story portions in the photo, 9 which -- I mean, it -- if it was more out, it 10 would be even calling more attention to it, so 11 certainly when you get around in front of it as 12 part of the drop-off, it has a presence to it, 13 but from -- from the street, it being recessed, 14 I don't know that you will -- it wouldn't -- it 15 doesn't distract as much as I think -- going 16 back to Ms. Mansfield's comment. 17 And on that topic, as far as the changing 18 of what's the primary entrance, we were just 19 talking -- and I think something to maybe keep 20 in mind on that is we're -- we're really 21 getting into use at that point and where we 22 generally have just stuck with design -- and 23 what I would say is when -- when we've dealt 24 with new construction and we get into having 25 the primary entrance on the front, there's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 202 1 certainly been times that perhaps we didn't 2 require that the entrance be there, but at 3 least that it be articulated to where it has 4 that appearance. I can't think of an actual 5 example in new construction that comes to mind, 6 but, you know, maintaining that presence on the 7 front where you don't have a big, blank wall 8 has been more how we've kind of approached 9 that. 10 And so, I mean, we'd like to see the doors 11 there, but it certainly needs to be articulated 12 as such. And this is a little different, since 13 we're dealing with an existing building and 14 it's really kind of the preservation of the 15 facade. 16 One of the things that -- that we probably 17 never think about when we have all these 18 conversions of the larger homes into office 19 buildings, a lot of times the parking is done 20 in the back of the lot and that's where your 21 accessibility ramps and stuff tend to be. So 22 even though they're not changing the front 23 facade where the main entrance is, they're 24 technically kind of doing the same thing where 25 they're -- they're using their main entrance to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 203 1 be the back of the building, but we don't even 2 know it because there's not been an alteration 3 to it, so that might be something to kind of 4 keep in mind as well. 5 The -- the one thing I would be worried 6 about is that if something is added to those 7 front entrances, it's -- call attention to the 8 fact that they're not being used like chains or 9 something to, you know, kind of -- these aren't 10 in use. I mean, as long as they're reading as 11 the entrances and there's not some effort to 12 kind of block that -- I think that's when it 13 would look a little -- or kind of bother us a 14 little bit more. I mean, that doesn't seem to 15 be part of the plans, but to, you know, 16 reemphasize that we're not using those doors, 17 it's around the corner -- I mean, I could see 18 where signage and stuff might be helpful, but 19 hopefully it wouldn't come down to -- that's 20 what -- you know, what people tend to do is do 21 those chains and -- and signs and stuff, and I 22 think that would be unfortunate to have happen 23 in this situation. So, you know, that's not 24 the case, and I think that's good. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 204 1 MR. ROLLAND: Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: I hope that helped. 3 MR. ROLLAND: Absolutely. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Or not. 5 All right. Shall we move on to new 6 business? 7 MS. SHEPPARD: Joel is the one that was 8 going to talk about historic streetscapes, and 9 he's hovering outside the door there. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you talk about the 11 Preserve America Grant in the meantime? 12 MS. SHEPPARD: Sure. 13 Basically, what -- we have an opportunity 14 to apply for some grant funds from the State. 15 This is actually a federal grant that the 16 State, I believe, has received and they are 17 opening it up to certified local governments to 18 apply for it. And Jacksonville, because you 19 guys exist and we have an ordinance, we are a 20 certified local government. There is some 21 potential, as I understand it, to pair up with 22 a nonprofit. 23 The due date for this grant, I believe, is 24 April 1st and there would have to be a match 25 involved, and we have to kind of work through Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 205 1 whether we can even come up with that, but 2 basically I just wanted to bring it to your 3 attention that we were looking at potentially 4 going for this grant and we would hope that you 5 would be willing to do a letter of support in 6 that effort. 7 We haven't totally determined what we 8 would be applying -- what purpose we would be 9 applying for. There's some flexibility there, 10 but one of the things that staff had come up 11 with was the idea of doing another Restore 12 Jacksonville conference, but we still have to 13 do some research as far as whether or not we 14 can make the match, given all the budget issues 15 and stuff, but -- so we're not running down to 16 the last minute, I wanted to see if I -- if we 17 couldn't get at least an okay to get a letter 18 of support when that time comes so we're not at 19 the last minute since it's going to be so close 20 to the March meeting. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Do we need a motion for 22 something like that? 23 MR. TEAL: Yeah, you could do a motion. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: I move that we approve a 25 letter of support. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 206 1 MR. ALLMAND: Second. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, aye. 3 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 5 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You've got your 7 letter of support. 8 We're coming back to the historic 9 streetscape committee. 10 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah, I -- Mr. Chairman, I 11 was just bringing this back to the commission's 12 attention. 13 Back in August of 2010, at the meeting on 14 August the 25th, the commission -- the folks in 15 Springfield came before the commission 16 concerned about the condition and the potential 17 loss of brick streets. And, as a result of 18 that, the commission did write a letter to the 19 Public Works director, bringing to his 20 attention the concern about preserving that 21 street and eventually repairing it, but also I 22 think as part of that motion in August there 23 was a statement to the effect that the 24 commission was looking to appoint a 25 subcommittee to address this issue as well as Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 207 1 some of the other historic streetscape matters. 2 And I know that we've had other committees 3 set up now that's sort of been drawing our 4 time, but -- the commission's time, but I just 5 wanted to, again, bring that forward and just 6 to remind you about that -- about that action. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 8 MS. BOYDSTON: Can I speak on that a 9 little bit? I know we're late. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 11 MS. BOYDSTON: I just want to share a 12 little update on our end, in that we keep -- in 13 Springfield there are streets that are being 14 paved over that we know are going to 15 potentially need to be restored with brick, so 16 we have put in calls to Public Works as well 17 and -- asking that they stop paving the streets 18 because of a combination of reasons. One is 19 that we want to address the brick issue, but 20 also these same streets are going to be tore up 21 for a major drainage project, and so the 22 drainage project is put on hold, so we said, 23 you know, we'd rather wait -- leave the streets 24 as they are, save the money -- and I know 25 that's complicated with the City because of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 208 1 contracts, but we're really pushing this now 2 to -- and I have been told that we should have 3 some answers with -- from Public Works, because 4 Public Works is the holdup is what I've been 5 told. JEA is totally on board and we just need 6 to hear from Public Works, so hopefully it will 7 be soon. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you had any response 9 from them? 10 MS. BOYDSTON: Public Works? 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Are they aware -- 12 MS. BOYDSTON: Just this week I did have a 13 person that said that they will be addressing 14 this and getting back to us -- round table -- 15 our Springfield round table is March 9th, and 16 so -- that they will have some answers for us. 17 I don't know what the answers will be, but at 18 least it's -- you know, that's our input. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 20 I think once we get through the condemned 21 structures committee, then I think certainly we 22 can go into doing a subcommittee for the 23 historic streetscapes, and we still really 24 haven't done much on windows that I would love 25 for us to do also. Let's get through the demo Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 209 1 process first and then we'll come back to that. 2 MR. McEACHIN: Very good. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Preservation awards. 4 Lisa. 5 MS. SHEPPARD: I think that I have gotten 6 a yes from everyone about moving the awards 7 from the 31st to the 5th of May, except for 8 one, who hopefully will be a thumbs up after 9 they look at their calendar. So definitely put 10 that on your calendar in case that does go 11 through, and that would certainly help us as 12 far as budgeting for the reception. 13 And as of tonight, we do have one sponsor 14 for our reception -- thank you, Mr. Allmand -- 15 and hopefully we will have additional sponsors. 16 Last year we had, I think, four to cover the 17 cost of the reception. And so, again, we will 18 be looking for multiple sponsors. I did add it 19 to the awards nomination thing, but I have not 20 heard back from anybody, but, hopefully, maybe 21 the neighborhoods can participate again and 22 anybody else on the commission that wants to 23 contribute to that. 24 But go ahead and mark it on your calendar 25 for both days, the 5th and the 31st, and I will Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 210 1 let you know next week which one we're going to 2 end up going forward with. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you let the commission 4 know what kind of response we've got in terms 5 of submissions to date? 6 MS. SHEPPARD: Two. So hopefully we'll -- 7 but, you know, they tend to kind of come in at 8 the last minute, and staff probably has some 9 ideas on things to follow up as well. 10 I did try to build in a little bit more 11 time so we have -- if we get a low turnout, 12 that we'll be able to put our heads together 13 and come up with some ideas that y'all might 14 want to consider. And I will be in touch with 15 the committee, which I believe is Jennifer, 16 John and David and Angela, and I will set up a 17 day some time in the next couple of weeks, 18 after the deadline, to go over the nominations. 19 That's it as far as preservation awards, 20 unless -- just get the word out that we're 21 looking for sponsors and that there's a couple 22 of days left to get in nominations. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have a condemned 24 structures committee report other than what 25 Jason gave us during -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 211 1 MS. SHEPPARD: I think we've probably 2 touched on all the -- 3 MS. MANSFIELD: We pretty much did that. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: That's kind of what I was 5 figuring. 6 MS. SHEPPARD: We'll try to have another 7 meeting soon to go over the draft. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, the only thing that 9 was left off before was that I'll have another 10 committee meeting with the public so that the 11 public can see what the draft is. And the 12 timing of when that happens versus when it's 13 completed, going through all the internal stuff 14 that the City needs, I need to talk to Mr. Teal 15 about that, about when the timing for that is 16 best. That's the only thing. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there any other 18 business to come before us? 19 STAFF MEMBERS: (No response.) 20 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, the meeting is 21 adjourned. 22 (The above proceedings were adjourned at 23 7:20 p.m.) 24 - - - 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 212 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA) ) 4 COUNTY OF DUVAL ) 5 I, Diane M. Tropia, Court Reporter, certify 6 that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a 7 true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 9 DATED this 16th day of March 2011. 10 11 12 ___________________________ Diane M. Tropia 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203