1 1 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE 2 HISTORIC PRESERVATION 3 COMMISSION 4 5 6 Proceedings held on Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 7 commencing at 3:10 p.m., Ed Ball Building, 214 North 8 Hogan Street, 8th Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before 9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of 10 Florida at Large. 11 12 PRESENT: 13 DAVID B. CASE, Chair. ANGELA SCHIFANELLA, Secretary. 14 JOSEPH F. THOMPSON, Commission Member. JENNIFER MANSFIELD, Commission Member. 15 JOHN ALLMAND, Commission Member. 16 ALSO PRESENT: 17 JOEL McEACHIN, Planning and Development Dept. SAMANTHA PAULL, Planning and Dev Dept. 18 LISA SHEPPARD, Planning and Development Dept. AUTUMN MARTINAGE, Planning and Dev Dept. 19 SCHERRIE REED, Planning and Development Dept. 20 - - - 21 22 23 24 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S March 23, 2011 3:10 p.m. 2 - - - 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome to the March 23rd 4 commission hearing for the Jacksonville 5 Historic Preservation Commission. 6 Let's verify a quorum. We have 7 Commissioners Allmand, Case, Mansfield, and 8 Schifanella. We do have a quorum. We have 9 four members. 10 I will entertain a motion for approval of 11 last month's meeting minutes. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I move that we approve 13 last month's minutes. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Second. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and 16 second. All those in favor, aye. 17 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: All those that would like 19 to speak today, make sure you fill out a blue 20 card. If you have a cell phone, please either 21 turn it off or put it on vibrate. If you're 22 going to hold a private conversation, please do 23 so in the hallway; otherwise, it gets picked up 24 by the court reporter. 25 We have two deferred items this afternoon: Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 3 1 COA-11-071, 1618 Stockton Street and 2 COA-11-119, 3578 St. Johns Avenue. Neither one 3 of these projects will be heard today. So if 4 you're here to speak to that, you can leave. 5 We have no items on the consent agenda at 6 this time nor do we have condemned properties 7 or any landmark status, so we will move on 8 directly to certificates of appropriateness. 9 The first item is COA-11-067. 10 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, I was just 11 talking with the applicant, Mr. Poole. He's 12 running late. And he's also involved on one of 13 new business items, so he would ask if we could 14 just wait and deal with this item when he gets 15 in here. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That will be fine. 17 We'll move on to item number 2, 18 COA-11-109, North Market Street. 19 MS. MARTINAGE: Mr. Chairman, my applicant 20 is not here at the moment, so if maybe we could 21 defer it for a little while to see if he shows 22 up. I have not heard from him, but he does 23 know the meeting is today. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then we'll move on 25 to item number 3, 1369 Talbot Avenue. I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 4 1 understand that the property had not been 2 posted for the required two-week period as 3 written in our bylaws. And, as such, unless 4 you can prove to the commission that the 5 property has been posted for two weeks, we will 6 have to automatically defer it until next 7 month. 8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: The -- 9 MS. PAULL: Sir, if you are going to talk, 10 could you please come up to the microphone. 11 Did you fill out a blue speaker card? 12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I did. 13 MS. PAULL: Okay. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name and address 15 for the -- 16 MR. MURRAY: Michael Murray, 1369 Talbot. 17 It's obviously a photo -- 18 MS. MARTINAGE: She'll ask you to swear in 19 in just one second. 20 THE REPORTER: I need you to raise your 21 right hand for me, please. 22 MR. MURRAY: (Complies.) 23 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 24 testimony you are about to give will be the 25 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 5 1 truth? 2 MR. MURRAY: I do. 3 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 MS. MARTINAGE: You're good now. 5 MR. MURRAY: Okay. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any proof or 7 evidence of the fact that the -- 8 MR. MURRAY: No. I mean, we -- the 9 photograph, then -- I don't know when it was 10 taken. The -- I -- we put the sign up the 11 weekend after we got it. Somebody drove by and 12 said that they didn't see it and took a 13 picture. 14 That's not the day that I got an e-mail 15 and said that they couldn't see because it was 16 trash day, the day that they came by, and you 17 can't see the trash cans there. So that's not 18 an accurate picture. 19 I didn't take a photograph of it with a 20 newspaper that said, "Here's the day that we 21 put it up." There's no guidelines about how 22 long or when to put the sign up. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, actually there is, 24 and it's in our bylaws. 25 MR. MURRAY: Is that in the municipal code Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 6 1 section, the part where it says it should be up 2 14 days? 3 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair, the 4 requirement under Chapter 307 of the Ordinance 5 Code specifies that notice is proper when signs 6 have been posted for 14 days. 7 Your bylaws get more stringent than that. 8 Your bylaws actually require a mandatory 9 deferral if there is evidence that signs have 10 not been posted. Your bylaws were adopted as 11 proper legal authority. You have proper legal 12 authority to adopt your bylaws. 13 And so, in essence, the Ordinance Code 14 says the 14 days. Your bylaws make it a 15 specific requirement for a deferral if you're 16 not satisfied that a sign has been posted for 17 14 days. 18 MR. MURRAY: That's not entirely accurate. 19 Your Municipal Code, 307.106(i), the 20 language is, "Signage should be posted." It's 21 not a "shall." 22 MR. TEAL: And in the bylaws, it is a 23 "shall." 24 MR. MURRAY: In the Municipal Code, it's 25 not. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 7 1 MR. TEAL: My legal advice to you is -- is 2 that your bylaws are just as effective as what 3 the Ordinance Code requires. Your bylaws can 4 be more stringent because your bylaws dictate 5 how you run the meeting. 6 And it being a mandatory requirement -- 7 your bylaws were adopted pursuant to your 8 authority under Chapter 76 of the Ordinance 9 Code. You do have authority to determine how 10 you're going to run your meetings. And your 11 bylaws specifically dictate that it's a 12 mandatory deferral if you are not satisfied 13 that it hasn't been 14 days posted. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: When was the application 15 submitted and when was he given the sign? 16 MR. MURRAY: March 2nd. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And when did you post 18 the sign? 19 MR. MURRAY: I think it was the Saturday 20 after, which was the 5th. 21 MS. PAULL: The COA was received February 22 4th. The sign was picked up March 2nd and -- 23 to be posted by the 8th, which would have given 24 them the full 14 days at that point. 25 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair to staff, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 8 1 what kind of notice do you provide to an 2 applicant as far as the requirement to post the 3 signs? 4 MR. MURRAY: None. 5 MS. PAULL: Actually, that's not true. 6 On the second page of the COA, that is 7 signed -- whether or not the applicant reads 8 that is up to their discretion, but they do 9 say, "Under public hearing notification, I 10 hereby certify that I have received one sign to 11 be posted by 3/8/2011 in a street-visible 12 location on all street sides of the subject 13 property or otherwise determined by the 14 Planning and Development Department. I 15 understand that it is my responsibility to 16 maintain the signage until a final 17 determination has been made by the Commission." 18 MR. MURRAY: I should point out, just for 19 future, the sign itself has no information of 20 when and where it needs to be placed. The -- 21 when that piece of paper is given to somebody, 22 it's in the midst of running up and down 23 between the stairs and signing different 24 documents, which my wife did. The copy of that 25 is never actually given to the applicant. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 9 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Can I -- just for my 2 benefit, since the evidence has been spoken of, 3 but what is this evidence that the sign was not 4 posted? 5 MS. PAULL: I took these photographs just 6 before the 8th. It would have been the Friday 7 before. 8 MR. MURRAY: The 4th. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You personally went out 10 there, and the sign was not there? 11 MS. PAULL: Right. 12 But we try to give -- and we tell 13 applicants when they come and pick up the sign 14 that they should post it right away so they 15 don't forget because we've had people -- that's 16 actually what happened with St. Johns Avenue. 17 They were -- they picked up the sign, stuck it 18 in their trunk and forgot about it. And we 19 tell them, "Try to post it as soon as you can." 20 I was out there on the 4th of March, which 21 was when this photograph was taken, and the 22 signs weren't posted. Our inspector was out 23 there on the -- let's see here -- on -- I think 24 it was the 14th or 15th, but it was this past 25 week, and the signs were not posted. They were Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 10 1 not visible on -- in front of the property, on 2 the person's actual property, as noted. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Were they seen at all 4 anywhere? 5 MS. PAULL: He never saw them. 6 After I talked to the applicant, when they 7 said that the sign was posted but behind trash 8 cans, the -- our inspector went out there 9 either later that day or the next day, and it 10 had -- the sign had been moved. They told me 11 that -- the applicant had told me that they had 12 moved it into their -- onto their actual 13 property from the right-of-way and had placed 14 it in front of their house, which the inspector 15 did see. But it's still -- at that point, was 16 only a week of notice, not two. 17 MR. ALLMAND: So what evidence do we have 18 that it wasn't posted by the time? Because if 19 you took these pictures on the 5th, it's -- 20 still said that there was a couple more days 21 that he had. And, I mean, do we have testimony 22 from them, or do we just -- I mean, does that 23 count if -- 24 MR. MURRAY: That would be hearsay. 25 MR. ALLMAND: Okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 11 1 MR. TEAL: In an administrative hearing 2 like this, there's -- the strict Rules of 3 Evidence aren't required. Hearsay evidence is 4 allowed. 5 MR. MURRAY: Okay. 6 MS. PAULL: And I'd be more than happy to 7 give you that e-mail and to have him come in, 8 but he -- our inspector was the one who went 9 out there, looked -- and he doesn't just do a 10 drive-by -- 11 MR. MURRAY: Sure. 12 MS. PAULL: -- because he's done these 13 before. 14 MR. MURRAY: Yeah. 15 MS. PAULL: He went -- he had gone around 16 and checked all the other properties in the 17 previous week and has some additional 18 photographs, not just the one staff takes. But 19 he -- 20 MR. MURRAY: Well, you told me he 21 photographed it. I've never seen a picture. 22 He -- you -- in the e-mail that you sent me, it 23 said, "He took a picture of the house and he 24 couldn't see the sign." And that was the 25 evidence. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 12 1 MS. PAULL: Well, I -- I know he just came 2 by the house. 3 MR. MURRAY: I have the e-mail. 4 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait. Wait. 6 Go ahead. 7 MR. TEAL: Ms. Paull, did -- Sam, did you 8 specifically instruct Mr. Kennelly to go out to 9 verify whether the sign was posted? Was that 10 the reason why he went out to the property? 11 MS. PAULL: Yes. 12 MR. TEAL: And so he was there to 13 specifically look and see whether the sign was 14 posted? 15 MS. PAULL: Yes. That was the only reason 16 he went to the property. And this was the 17 first time he had been to the property. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: And, at that time, he did 19 not see it? 20 MS. PAULL: No. 21 MR. MURRAY: And do you have the 22 photograph that he took? 23 MS. PAULL: He didn't take a photograph. 24 I don't have anything with me, so ... 25 MR. MURRAY: Well, if it's deferred, I'd Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 13 1 at least like an opportunity to present the 2 e-mail where it says this fellow took the 3 picture because I can tell you where that sign 4 was and where the trash cans were is the same 5 place. So this is a misleading thing. 6 I had moved the sign back onto the 7 property by the oak tree that's in front, 8 between the oak tree and the tree, because what 9 the -- I think it was -- Samantha had talked to 10 the City attorney, and the City attorney said, 11 Well, it wasn't proper anyway because it wasn't 12 in the -- on your property. It was in the 13 right-of-way. And I did that on the 14th. 14 MS. PAULL: Which, still, if it was in the 15 right-of-way -- and tell me if I'm incorrect, 16 Jason -- it doesn't -- it's not technically 17 noticing your property. 18 MR. MURRAY: It's got the address written 19 on it. It's not -- 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think -- 21 MR. MURRAY: People can figure it out. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think the practical 23 thing is it has to be visible to the 24 neighborhood, and if -- 25 MR. MURRAY: Sure. And it really is Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 14 1 only -- 2 (Simultaneous speaking.) 3 MR. MURRAY: -- for a couple of hours. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- (inaudible) either 5 way, it's really not visible. 6 MR. MURRAY: But it's just for -- 7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 8 MR. MURRAY: It was trash day. Sunday 9 night is trash day. 10 MS. MANSFIELD: Excuse me, sir. We can't 11 talk over each other. 12 MR. MURRAY: Okay. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: The court reporter can't 14 take down the record. 15 MR. MURRAY: Sorry. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: At this point in time, I 17 think we need to defer it in accordance with 18 our bylaws and do this properly and give you -- 19 give the neighbors adequate time to have the 20 house posted and that it be deferred until the 21 next -- our next commission hearing. 22 So please make sure that the sign is 23 visible in your front yard. 24 MR. MURRAY: Yeah. I could send a 25 photograph to the newspaper and send it daily. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 15 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 2 Let's move on to item number 4, 3 COA-11-115, 2783 Selma Street. 4 MS. MARTINAGE: Mr. Dieffenbach, are you 5 here? 6 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 7 MS. MARTINAGE: This probably needs to be 8 deferred. The applicant has not corresponded 9 with me. The last I heard he was sick and in 10 the hospital with an estimated release date of 11 last weekend, but I have not heard back from 12 him since. And I did let him know that the 13 commission was today and if he had any -- asked 14 him to review the report, if he had any 15 questions or concerns to let me know so we 16 could potentially hear it. And I have not 17 heard back, so we probably need to defer this 18 application. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: Could I ask a question? 20 Because if it's deferred, then maybe staff 21 could correspond with the applicant about it 22 and communicate. 23 I had a question because the report said 24 that the porch was currently a flat roof, but 25 the photos seem to indicate it's a hip roof. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 16 1 And your -- or what I think are staff's 2 recommendations of where to bring the ridge of 3 the hip look to me like that's where it exists 4 now. 5 MS. MARTINAGE: It's kind of a play. It 6 is a flat roof. The -- which is why he's -- 7 let me get to -- when the applicant came in -- 8 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, but they were black 9 and white photos, so it was hard to tell. 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: If it's hipped, it's 11 very, very low pitched. 12 He's asking to just pitch it up a little 13 bit? 14 MS. MARTINAGE: Right. He is asking to 15 create a pitch that would, one, allow him to 16 use shingles on it; and two, take care of the 17 water retention issue that's been occurring on 18 the porch roof over the past 80 years. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Uh-huh. 20 MS. MARTINAGE: And -- but it is his 21 testimony, when he came in, that it was a flat 22 roof with some kind of flashing up against 23 where the side-facing gable and the flat 24 portion -- it had some kind of flashing 25 drainage system that had never functioned Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 17 1 properly and had created a concave roof. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So he hasn't had a 3 chance to even see the report or -- 4 MS. MARTINAGE: I don't know. I e-mailed 5 it to him. I also put it in the mail to him. 6 He did respond to my e-mail, but he didn't 7 reference the report at all, so I don't know if 8 he was able to see attachments. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it's in the best 10 interest of the applicant that we defer this 11 item until our next meeting. 12 The next item is COA-11-130. As the 13 Chair, I would request that we defer this item. 14 I have a series of questions that I think only 15 the owner can answer, and I respectfully 16 request that the owner make every effort to 17 attend our next regularly-scheduled commission 18 hearing. 19 Since it was posted as a public hearing, 20 if anyone would like to speak to that item 21 today, you can do so, but you may be better off 22 waiting until we actually hear the item next 23 month. 24 Since there is someone to speak, we will 25 open the public hearing. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 18 1 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 2 THE REPORTER: Name and address, please. 3 MS. DEVALL: Gloria Devall, 7027 Alpine 4 Street, Jacksonville 32208. 5 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 6 hand for me, please. 7 MS. DEVALL: (Complies.) 8 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 9 testimony you are about to give will be the 10 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 11 truth? 12 MS. DEVALL: I do. 13 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 14 MS. DEVALL: I'm here for Preservation 15 SOS, and I would basically like to state that 16 we believe this house is a perfect candidate 17 for mothballing and that -- if we could defer 18 it until that is an option, that that -- we 19 really might be able to save this house. 20 So we -- we understand the neighbors' 21 concern about blight, and I think this gives us 22 a wonderful opportunity to also address, not 23 just safety issues, but the blight too. 24 So that's all I have to say. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 19 1 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) 2 MS. BOYDSTON: Sorry. I was looking at my 3 notes and didn't know if this was up. 4 THE REPORTER: Name and address, please. 5 MS. BOYDSTON: Brenda Boydston, 1321 North 6 Main Street. 7 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 8 hand for me, please. 9 MS. BOYDSTON: (Complies.) 10 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 11 testimony you are about to give will be the 12 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 13 truth? 14 MS. BOYDSTON: I do. 15 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 16 MS. BOYDSTON: About this property, I know 17 that we have a lot to discuss about it, so I'm 18 surprised we're being deferred. And I'm hoping 19 that we'll get some input from last month's 20 recommendation that this shouldn't be coming 21 before us until we resolve the conflict of the 22 demolition by neglect, that this is a case 23 of -- clearly a case of demolition by neglect. 24 So is that something we're going to be 25 able to hear tonight of how we're going to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 20 1 address -- we're not? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: No, we're not going to hear 3 the item tonight at all. 4 MS. BOYDSTON: Okay. Well, on record, I 5 didn't speak on it last month for a couple of 6 reasons. One in particular was that it did not 7 come before our Design Review Committee, and 8 our Design Review meets two weeks prior to 9 these hearings. And as a representative of 10 that committee, I speak for them. And that is 11 a concern that we have, not just about this 12 property, but any of the applications that come 13 before you, you know, as much input as possible 14 I know we all want. 15 And so it did not come before us, and it 16 does seem like some of these properties sneak 17 up on us. And so I have had ongoing 18 communication with Joel's office about that, 19 and I know Preservation SOS is dedicated to 20 this, which is, you know, terrific. 21 So we -- the processes have to change. I 22 know you guys know that. I'm preaching to the 23 choir here. 24 But this month is my one-year anniversary 25 in this position, and a lot has happened that's Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 21 1 been good, I think, in my understanding of our 2 role in trying to preserve these properties, 3 but a lot is not. And I know we have come a 4 long way with identifying the problem, but -- 5 and we have. I think we just -- we need to 6 acknowledge that. But I think we all should be 7 in agreement that the processes are the 8 problem, and we've got to fix the processes in 9 this house. 10 You know, the -- SPAR's position on 11 demolitions is we oppose any demolition of a 12 historic structure unless it's in danger of 13 collapse, and this has not been identified as 14 one of those. 15 Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 18 THE REPORTER: Name and address, please. 19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Chris Arsenault, 8682 20 Royalwood Drive. 21 THE REPORTER: I need you to raise your 22 right hand for me, please. 23 MR. ARSENAULT: (Complies.) 24 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 25 testimony you are about to give will be the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 22 1 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 2 truth? 3 MR. ARSENAULT: Yes. 4 THE REPORTER: Did you fill out a card? 5 MR. ARSENAULT: Yes. It's back there. 6 THE REPORTER: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. ARSENAULT: My name is Chris 8 Arsenault. I'm the director of business 9 development for New Leaf Construction. I'm 10 speaking on behalf of the owner, Dr. Florete. 11 I just want to let you know that we will make 12 every effort to get him here next month. His 13 schedule is very busy. He's actually out of 14 town right now, as is my father, the vice 15 president of our company. He is actually in 16 Atlanta at a conference. 17 Next month when we come, I guess we'll 18 talk to the issue of demolition by neglect, 19 which, if you had walked through this building, 20 you would understand. It's not necessarily 21 neglect over the period of years that 22 Dr. Florete is on the project. It's the period 23 of many years of the different owners coming 24 and going and passing it off to one other 25 person. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 23 1 I've actually walked this property and 2 will never do so again for fear that it will 3 collapse on top of my head. And hopefully we 4 can get an inspector out there to look at it 5 and testify to that fact at some point in the 6 near future. 7 The level of damage in this house is 8 something that I have never seen before and 9 something that anyone would consider habitable, 10 but that will be brought up next month, I 11 suppose. 12 And I thank you for your time. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 14 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Johannes 16 Ullrich, 418 West 7th Street, 3206 [sic]. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: Could you spell your last 18 name? 19 MR. ULLRICH: U-l-l-r-i-c-h. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: Thank you. 21 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 22 hand for me, please. 23 MR. ULLRICH: (Complies.) 24 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 25 testimony you are about to give will be the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 24 1 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 2 truth? 3 MR. ULLRICH: I do. 4 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 5 MR. ULLRICH: I would just like to speak 6 about this house and against its demolition 7 also on behalf of Preservation SOS. 8 In particular, this part of Laura Street 9 is almost intact. This particular owner, I 10 understand, owns four lots here. One of them 11 has already been demolished. And this is the 12 one gap really in this block, so you're really 13 talking here about the fabric of the historic 14 district, not just about a single house. 15 And, yeah, I would also like to add that 16 this house is certainly not in much worse 17 condition than a house that I am working on 18 right now to fix it up, and it will probably be 19 done in a couple of months. So I think it 20 certainly can be done. It's just a matter of 21 being able -- not being able to find an 22 inspector that will condemn it and write it 23 off. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 25 All right. We will continue this at next Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 25 1 month's commission hearing. 2 We will move on to -- is item 1 or 2 3 available? 4 MS. MARTINAGE: Number 2. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Number 2. Let's go to 6 COA-11-109, North Market Street. 7 MS. MARTINAGE: Mr. Chairman, I just spoke 8 with the owner of the property. He got called 9 away on business and forgot to call me; 10 however, he is in agreement with all staff 11 conditions, and as long as nothing -- you 12 have -- you guys have no concerns or anything, 13 then he is okay with us proceeding forward. If 14 it needs to be, he can defer it until next 15 month, if it happens. 16 This property is on the 1400 block of 17 North Market Street. It was approved -- a new 18 house was approved for this lot previously, 19 last February, under COA-09-1 -- COA-10-058. 20 He came to me about a month or so ago and 21 said that he would actually like to build a 22 different design on the same lot. The house 23 that he would like to construct was approved 24 for a lot on Walnut Street last year as well 25 under COA-10-212. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 26 1 Here is the two adjoining structures 2 (indicating). It's kind of sandwiched. It's a 3 lot primarily of two-story homes and one other 4 vacant lot. Here is the house that he is 5 proposing (indicating). 6 We are recommending -- he -- under the 7 previous COA-10-212, he was presented with a 8 couple of conditions regarding additional 9 window placement and relocation of a couple of 10 windows on the side elevations. He has met 11 those conditions and has revised them for these 12 plans. And so, therefore, we are recommending 13 approval with the following conditions: that 14 the finished floor height and front setback 15 match adjoining properties; that the spaces 16 between the porch piers on all three sides as 17 well as the rear deck be enclosed with framed 18 wood lattice panels; the treads and risers of 19 both the front and rear steps be enclosed to 20 give the steps a more finished appearance; that 21 the windows be recessed within the openings and 22 trimmed out in a traditional manner; that the 23 nine-over-one and four-over-one windows 24 proposed for the front elevation and any 25 windows on the side elevations, if added, shall Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 27 1 feature an exterior raised profile muntin; that 2 the -- if you notice the top left window, the 3 four-over-one, shutters are proposed. We are 4 conditioning that those shutters be removed; 5 that the front entry door shall be a half, 6 three-quarter, or full-light clear glass door 7 with no decorative etching, frosting, or 8 leading; final window and door product 9 information be reviewed and approved by the 10 Planning and Development Department prior to 11 purchase and installation; minor changes to 12 architectural details, such as light patterns, 13 column design, and masonry materials, can be 14 handled administratively by the Planning and 15 Development Department at its discretion. 16 We also had a couple of suggestions, but 17 we're not recommending conditioning them; that 18 the proposed shake siding on the gable on the 19 front elevation -- use proposed shake siding on 20 the gable area for the front elevation and use 21 the proposed lap siding consistent throughout 22 the remainder of the structure. I believe 23 there's two types of siding proposed on the 24 structure. 25 And the second suggestion was that the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 28 1 front steps be masonry or concrete and flanked 2 by -- on either side by a pair of cheek walls. 3 (Mr. Thompson enters the proceedings.) 4 MS. MARTINAGE: As part of this 5 application, he is also proposing -- I didn't 6 include the site plan -- a single-car driveway. 7 We are recommending approval with a condition. 8 And I'll let Jason read his driveway 9 condition because it kind of -- 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And before you go on, I 11 feel kind of strongly about your suggestion on 12 the shingle panel that's on that front 13 elevation. It only appears in that one spot, 14 so I would like to move that to a condition. 15 Would that -- 16 MS. MARTINAGE: I would have to -- 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Would you have to call 18 the applicant? 19 MS. MARTINAGE: -- step out and call him 20 and -- 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Uh-huh. 22 MS. MARTINAGE: But I can do that while 23 Jason reads the driveway, if you give me a 24 moment. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 29 1 MR. TEAL: I'll try and read really, 2 really slow. 3 If you'll recall, we had a condition as 4 far as the ribbon and the ribbon-like 5 appearance and what that means. And so, in 6 essence, the condition -- there would be two 7 conditions. 8 The first is -- is that the driveway shall 9 be no wider than 10 feet in width, including 10 framing around the ribbons. 11 And then the second would be that the 12 driveway shall be a traditional concrete ribbon 13 drive or shall feature a simulated ribbon 14 appearance from the front property line to just 15 beyond the front corner of the house. This can 16 be achieved through the use of brick or a 17 combination of stamping and staining a portion 18 of the concrete to mimic the traditional ribbon 19 appearance of historic driveways. 20 And then I would request of Joel McEachin 21 also add in there that the ribbons themselves 22 be of a traditional width so that you don't 23 have really wide ribbons themselves. And so, 24 in essence, it would be of a traditional width. 25 And I don't know if we can explain that a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 30 1 little bit better as far as whether there's a 2 range in size or a maximum that you want to put 3 as far as how wide the concrete can be. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Joel, can you -- can you 5 tell us approximately what that traditional 6 width has been? 7 MR. McEACHIN: I was just trying to get 8 reassurance from Sam that I knew what I was 9 talking about. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, if you want Sam to 11 answer, she can too. 12 MR. McEACHIN: It seems like that those 13 ribbons are about two feet wide -- 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 15 MR. McEACHIN: -- and about three feet 16 between the ribbons. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 18 MR. McEACHIN: But I would -- definitely 19 would want to check that out before I'd -- you 20 know, something in that neighborhood. 21 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, our sample 22 historic driveway, when we were originally 23 looking at all of this, I believe, was only 24 six feet wide, and the middle section was 25 three feet, and each ribbon was one and a half. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 31 1 So to -- and that's -- I mean, that's, 2 like, almost an original driveway that we were 3 looking at. So I think Joel's numbers are 4 pretty close to what we've talked to applicants 5 about in the past, that the ribbons are smaller 6 than the middle section. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Have we made adjustments in 8 width based on the average wheel dimension of 9 current cars? Has that been taken into account 10 when we established that? 11 MR. McEACHIN: When we set out to 12 determine these widths, it was based on some 13 current driveways and driveways that are 14 currently being used, so they seem to still 15 work. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 17 MR. McEACHIN: But you actually have the 18 extra benefit of the fact that you're not just 19 dealing with ribbons. You also have a hard 20 surface -- 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. 22 MR. McEACHIN: -- in between and on the 23 two sides. 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. The only thing 25 about specifying these kind of dimensions is if Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 32 1 you -- you know, if you do two, three, and two, 2 you're up to seven, and then we've given them 3 ten feet. And I don't know that I want to see 4 another stripe on the ground. 5 So I'm a little concerned about -- 6 especially for the center distance. Maybe we 7 can just express it more as a proportion, that 8 the two ribbons will be no more than, I don't 9 know, 60 percent of the width of the middle or, 10 you know, something where -- 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- they achieve the 13 proportion that you're looking for without -- 14 MS. MARTINAGE: I believe some of the 15 math -- when we were discussing this, it was 16 like a one-two-one proportion, that one ribbon 17 was half the size of the center section. 18 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Something like that 19 might -- 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I would be good with that. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be 30 inches, 23 60 inches, 30 inches. 24 MS. MARTINAGE: Exactly. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's reasonable. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 33 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we make that part of 3 the record? 4 MR. TEAL: So if my understanding is 5 correct, the ribbon portion of the driveway 6 shall equal -- I guess, directly equal -- 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 8 MR. TEAL: -- half of the size of the 9 center portion? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 11 MR. TEAL: Is that what I understand? 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: Could you say that again? 14 MR. TEAL: That one ribbon equals half of 15 the size of the center divider, I guess, 16 between the two ribbons. So if you add the two 17 ribbons together, it shall equal the amount 18 that's in the middle -- or to the divider 19 between the ribbons. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. That's right. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: I think you might be able 22 to use the word "approximately" to account for 23 those odd situations. 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's right. Because 25 at ten feet, you know, that's getting pretty Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 34 1 far apart actually. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: Yes. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So it's a -- I think 4 people have to use a little bit of -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the wheel base is 6 usually around seven feet. 7 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Not my car. 8 Did he have a -- 9 MS. MARTINAGE: The applicant did agree to 10 that condition -- to moving suggestion number 1 11 as a condition. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yes. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 14 MS. MARTINAGE: He said he was actually 15 thinking about requesting that anyway. 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It's the one little 17 rectangle left on the main part of the 18 elevation. I think it's -- 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- odd. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other questions 22 for staff? 23 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We'll open it to a 25 public hearing. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 35 1 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) 2 MS. BOYDSTON: The Design Review Committee 3 is really impressed with this builder. He is 4 so accommodating. I know that anything that -- 5 conditions you come up with, I think -- he's 6 always met. 7 The one comment that we had was concerning 8 the spacing between the piers, and I didn't 9 hear if that was addressed. Did you address -- 10 MS. MARTINAGE: It was not. 11 MS. BOYDSTON: Okay. That was one 12 concern, is that something -- the spacing 13 between the piers, and I don't know if it was 14 the front or the side. 15 And the other comment that I had was 16 concerning the shakes being all on the -- not 17 just that area, but the whole second story. 18 And -- and I do know that there was an 19 issue about the lot size, that the design of 20 this house was for originally -- 21 MS. MARTINAGE: The original house 22 proposed for this lot was longer than the 23 current proposed house, which is why he wanted 24 to switch to a shorter house, to allow for a 25 little bit more backyard for a potential buyer. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 36 1 MS. BOYDSTON: Right. And we were in 2 support of that, so we're in support of staff's 3 recommendations as well. 4 Thanks. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Would anybody else like to 6 speak to this item? 7 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none or seeing 9 none, we'll close the public hearing. 10 I would be happy to -- 11 MR. MURRAY: Well, hey, I had a question. 12 I didn't realize you were going to close 13 it, but it was concerning -- 14 MS. PAULL: Sir, you'll need to come up to 15 the microphone. 16 MR. MURRAY: Sure. 17 (Mr. Murray approaches the podium.) 18 MR. MURRAY: I had a question regarding my 19 application. The -- and there's a couple of 20 things, and I wanted to bring it up because 21 after I -- 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: He's not closing the 23 whole hearing, just the discussion of this 24 project. 25 MR. MURRAY: Oh, okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 37 1 MS SCHIFANELLA: That's all right. 2 MR. MURRAY: Well, I would like to speak, 3 so let me know when I can. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any -- let's 5 see. We've already closed the public hearing. 6 I'll entertain a motion. 7 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'll make a motion. 8 I move that we approve COA-11-109 in the 9 1400 block of North Market Street for the 10 request for new construction with all staff 11 conditions, with the additional condition 12 number 10, which is in the staff report as 13 suggestion number 1, and also with the driveway 14 conditions as read into the record by Mr. Teal. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Second. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further conversation? 17 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion and 19 a second. 20 All those in favor, aye. 21 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 23 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, by your 25 action, you have approved COA-11-109 with Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 38 1 conditions. 2 And we still haven't heard from item 3 number 1? 4 MR. McEACHIN: I believe there's a -- 5 isn't there one on the work without a COA? 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. That's where I 7 was -- 8 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah. Let's go there next. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go there next, and 10 then -- 11 MR. McEACHIN: And then we can go back to 12 that item. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Work without a 14 certificate of appropriateness, item 1, 15 COA-11-107, 1551 Boulevard. 16 MS. PAULL: Yes. This application has two 17 parts to the request. What the applicant is 18 requesting is approval of the installed 19 casement windows that start on the rear corner 20 and wrap around -- or start, I'm sorry, on the 21 left rear corner and wrap around to the rear 22 elevation of the structure. The right arrow 23 points to the ones that are currently installed 24 that the applicant is seeking approval of and 25 the green arrow points to the ones that are Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 39 1 historic. 2 The staff understands and does have 3 photographs of the casement windows prior to 4 their replacement and knew that they were, at 5 minimum, needing repair. Some of them were 6 not -- were missing out of the openings, and we 7 were -- had the applicant come to us 8 beforehand, we would have done this 9 administratively, as it's less than 25 percent; 10 however, conditioning that a window product 11 meet the existing lines of the historic 12 casements, that they're recessed in the 13 opening, that the historic opening line up with 14 the header of the existing historic casements. 15 I can't confirm from this photograph, the 16 applicant has said, though, that the header 17 height is the same. It's just the trim and the 18 siding on the rear elevation has been removed 19 around those windows. 20 You can tell from this picture that the 21 windows aren't as recessed as the historic 22 casements. However, it is the applicant's 23 testimony -- and he'll be able to explain that 24 more -- that once the trim and shingles are 25 added back, it would be built out, so it would Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 40 1 look like they are recessed just as much as the 2 historic ones. 3 And the area that you see that's Tyvek'd 4 over on the left side of the screen was a 5 previous COA from 2009 that -- the final order 6 is included in your packet. The applicant was 7 approved to enclose that rear stairwell, back 8 porch type area, emergency exit, from when this 9 unit was split up and was conditioned to 10 install windows in that rear area on the second 11 floor. 12 He ended up taking three windows and 13 attaching them to the bank of casements, and 14 he's also asking for approval of that. It was 15 not proposed originally, so that's also part of 16 this since it's a whole large bank and all the 17 units are together. We're just looking at it 18 as essentially one large application. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: The adjacent windows 20 (inaudible) 90 degrees to the new ones -- the 21 historic ones -- 22 MS. PAULL: Uh-huh. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: -- are those true divided 24 lights with raised muntins? It's hard to tell. 25 MS. PAULL: The historic? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 41 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 2 MS. PAULL: Yes, as far as I know. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: The new ones, are they? 4 MS. PAULL: I don't believe they're true 5 divided, but the applicant -- I believe that 6 they have exterior profiled muntins, but the 7 applicant can explain that further. 8 Here's the windows close up (indicating). 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Is that casement the 10 original casement? Is there any evidence that 11 that's the original historic casement that was 12 in the structure? 13 MS. PAULL: We never know when -- if 14 windows are original or not to a structure, but 15 it is historic as far as we know. 16 So this is the other area I was talking 17 about before (indicating). The enclosure, as 18 you can see, where -- how far the Tyvek goes 19 over, goes over three casement windows. And 20 the applicant was conditioned to install one, 21 but ended up installing three but attaching 22 them to the bank of windows, so -- that's a 23 closet area over there. 24 So if you are approving the section of 25 them, essentially it would -- that's the other Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 42 1 part of that. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: Is there a close-up photo 3 showing the header? 4 MS. PAULL: I can't get up that high off 5 of the second floor to be able to -- 6 MS. MANSFIELD: On some of these 7 close-ups, you could see the bottom, but you 8 couldn't see the top. 9 MS. PAULL: No. I don't have it around 10 the corner. That one's close right over there 11 (indicating), but it cuts it off a little bit. 12 It's kind of hard from the ground to get the 13 second floor. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, it really -- 15 I'd like to have him provide some evidence from 16 the inside. It really looks lower. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: It does. 18 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And it could be -- I 19 mean, I just sort of cast the line in the 20 photograph. It could be an optical illusion, 21 but it sure looks like a lower head height, so 22 I wouldn't mind having the applicant measure 23 that head height and just verify it. 24 MR. ALLMAND: If you look at the siding, 25 yeah. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 43 1 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are there any 3 further questions from the staff? 4 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 5 MS. PAULL: We are recommending approval. 6 However, the product that the applicant 7 has installed doesn't match the original muntin 8 design of the historic casements, so we're 9 recommending approval with a product that 10 matches the historic casements, as there -- 11 there's already a variety of different window 12 patterns and styles on the house, but they are, 13 as far as we know, all historic. 14 So to maintain that consistency versus 15 introducing a new pattern -- because all the 16 casements have that similar divide, which you 17 can see down in the bottom right corner. There 18 are more casements on the structure that are 19 original, as far as we know. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I have to ask this 21 again. For the -- where he replaced, were they 22 banks of four like this and -- I mean, I guess 23 I'm trying to find out, aside from muntin 24 pattern, are they similar in scale to the 25 original casements? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 44 1 MS. PAULL: To be honest, I didn't look at 2 that. We were looking -- they didn't meet the 3 district design regulations and our standard 4 window conditions of matching the grid, so I 5 honestly did not look at that. But there are 6 windows included -- I mean -- windows -- there 7 are photographs included in your packet that do 8 show the -- there should be. 9 No. I have them in the file, and I'll get 10 them for you to show you what the historic ones 11 looked like. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: And this application isn't 13 addressing the window at the very top, inside 14 the -- near the peak that seems to be missing? 15 That's not on this, right? 16 MS. PAULL: No. 17 There are a variety of other window 18 repairs the applicant's been doing that he's 19 been working with for administrative approvals. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: I wanted to clarify for 21 the record since it's in one of the photos. 22 MS. PAULL: Gotcha. Understandable. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any further 24 questions of staff? 25 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 45 1 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, we'll open it to a 2 public hearing. 3 Is the applicant present? 4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on up. 6 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 7 THE REPORTER: I need your name and 8 address, please. 9 MR. COLÓN: Raul, R-a-u-l, Colón, 10 C-o-l-o-n, 1551 Boulevard. 11 THE REPORTER: I need you to raise your 12 right hand for me, please. 13 MR. COLÓN: (Complies.) 14 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 15 testimony you are about to give will be the 16 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MR. COLON: Yes, ma'am. 19 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 20 MR. COLÓN: There was some question as to 21 the condition of the windows prior to -- and 22 I've -- if I may just make a comment. 23 I find it interesting that we've got a 24 demolition by neglect, and that's pretty much 25 where this house was at when I purchased it. I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 46 1 purchased this house in '09 -- in October of 2 '09 at auction, and total disrepair inside and 3 out, total disrepair. As a matter of fact, it 4 was before the Code Enforcement Board, and I've 5 just gotten an extension -- the Municipal Code 6 Enforcement. 7 And I had issues with COAs and stuff 8 because I just didn't understand that I was 9 buying into an historic district. So the 10 very -- my very first contact with the historic 11 society was a stop work order. You know, 12 ignorance, I guess, you know, although not 13 bliss, that's the only thing I can plead. 14 I was attempting to comply with Municipal 15 Code Enforcement, which had issued numerous 16 violations over a period of three or four years 17 to the owner -- the previous owner. And the 18 bank arrived at an agreement with Municipal 19 Code Enforcement that they would allow me a 20 year, within which I would do substantial 21 repairs to the house, which included the rear 22 windows. 23 If I may. 24 (Tenders document.) 25 THE CHAIRMAN: If you give it to us, we Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 47 1 have to keep it. We can't give it back to you. 2 If it's just a picture, I mean -- 3 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. No. I just -- I wanted 4 you to see it. I mean, just -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, we'd like to see it. 6 But if you give it to us, we will keep it for 7 our records, for the file. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: It becomes a public 9 record. 10 MR. COLÓN: Okay. Fine. 11 That was the condition of the windows. 12 You see four windows there. The ones on the 13 far left were completely rotted and termite 14 eaten and, you know, just a few panes 15 remaining. And it was suggested by Historic 16 Preservation that there were just some window 17 panes missing -- glass panes. And, as you can 18 see, I mean, that was not the case. 19 I -- admittedly, I did not consult with 20 Historic Preservation when I received the COA 21 for the enclosure, and I was told that casement 22 windows would be okay. I wasn't given 23 specifications or, you know, any of the 24 criteria, which I later learned was required. 25 So I got casement windows and included the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 48 1 casements in a closet area, which is what we're 2 discussing in the new area. That's a closet 3 area. 4 And against my better judgment, I agreed 5 and said, "Okay. I'll put windows in the 6 closet area." But I -- you know, that was 7 never my intent. 8 The reason for the closet -- the windows 9 in the closet area is to differentiate -- I've 10 been told, to differentiate between the new 11 construction and the old, the historic. 12 An additional condition was that the 13 dentals that you see on the historic portion 14 not be replicated in the new, so I complied 15 with that. But never was there specificity as 16 to where the windows should be, so I just went 17 ahead and grouped them all together because I 18 thought it looked nice. 19 The windows, once the trim is done -- they 20 are recessed. They have wooden muntins. 21 They're, I think, one light shy of the 22 originals, but I couldn't get -- I couldn't get 23 those windows. I couldn't find them anywhere, 24 casement windows, to match the old. To make 25 them new would cost me -- I've got an Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 49 1 estimate -- I think it's $5,200 for the frames, 2 plus the glass, and an additional 2,500 for the 3 installation. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: What's happening with the 5 opening that does not have -- 6 MR. COLÓN: The opening -- those two 7 windows were fine. They were repairable. I've 8 got those two windows inside the house. I'm 9 about to put them back now. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 11 MR. COLÓN: And then the other two will 12 come down, and I'll repair those and put them 13 back. They're in good shape. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 15 MR. COLÓN: The others were completely 16 rotted. They were just gone, you know. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Can I ask you who the 18 vendor was that sold this product to you? 19 MR. COLÓN: The windows? Monarch -- 20 Monarch Windows. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Is there a local -- 22 MR. COLÓN: Yeah, there is local vendor, 23 but I don't have his address. Monarch windows 24 are used throughout Springfield -- 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I know the product. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 50 1 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'm just curious. You 3 know, we like to think that the better window 4 suppliers are knowledgeable about the 5 regulations. And I'm surprised they didn't say 6 anything to you -- 7 MR. COLÓN: No, they didn't. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- about getting -- 9 MR. COLÓN: No, they didn't, as a matter 10 of fact. I mean, I -- 11 MS. MANSFIELD: Who was your local contact 12 here? 13 MR. COLÓN: I don't have that with me. I 14 don't have that information. I don't -- just 15 don't have it in my file today. You know, I 16 didn't -- I have -- I've gotten citations and 17 warnings and violations. I mean, it seems like 18 every week there's a new violation, you know. 19 And I've acquiesced to Ms. Paull and 20 Mr. Kennelly on replacing casement windows, 21 which I fabricated myself on the other side, 22 which had I placed -- I placed two vinyl 23 windows, which were kind of sort of similar, 24 smaller windows. I didn't think they could be 25 seen from the street, and that's one of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 51 1 conditions that I read in your book that, you 2 know, is okay. And they were disapproved, so I 3 had to take them out. 4 And I rummaged around for a -- I think 5 it's a 10 or a 12/1 and put that in there, and 6 that's -- it's decrepit. It's falling apart. 7 But that's the best I could do. So what I'll 8 do is -- in the shower area, where these 9 windows were -- and that's why the 12/1 was 10 completely decayed and I took it out and put a 11 vinyl and raised it so the shower -- the water 12 doesn't get on it. 13 I'm going to cover the entire thing from 14 the inside, which is the only option that I 15 legitimately have, you know, not what I would 16 have preferred. I would have preferred natural 17 sunlight. But that's the only choice I was 18 given, so I put in the old window and covered 19 it up. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I think there are 22 other options, but if that's the one you choose 23 to go with -- 24 MR. COLÓN: No, ma'am. I looked. I have 25 looked. I looked for 12/1s new. You know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 52 1 they don't -- these windows aren't made 2 anymore. There were no suggestions forthcoming 3 from, you know -- 4 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, because of the code, 5 you can't find true divided light, but you can 6 find the single pane with the exterior muntins. 7 There are a lot of manufacturers; Pella, 8 Marvin, Anderson. 9 MR. COLÓN: Jeld-Wen is what I bought. 10 MS. MANSFIELD: Jeld-Wen? 11 MR COLÓN: Yeah. They had the muntins on 12 the outside. They weren't the right 13 configuration or the right size is what I was 14 given -- 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, they'll all make you 16 one to fit your opening. 17 MR. COLÓN: I'm sure they would, yeah. 18 And if someone here would be willing to 19 pay for those windows, I'd be happy to install 20 them, you know. 21 It isn't a question of whether -- if 22 someone will make you, you know, windows that 23 are exactly alike. I've got a gentleman that's 24 prepared to make me windows that are identical 25 to the ones that came out. You know, it's a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 53 1 question of whether I can afford it now. So -- 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You're in a difficult 3 situation -- 4 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- because this is just 6 a beautiful, high quality example of 7 Springfield architecture, and it's going to be 8 difficult for us to look at it and, you know, 9 kind of accept compromise solutions because 10 it's a fabulous structure. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: Honestly, people come to 12 us all the time wanting to shorten windows or 13 make them a different shape so that they can 14 use stock products. And when you wind up doing 15 that, it drastically changes how the building 16 looks from the outside. 17 MR. COLÓN: Well, I don't think that 18 changes that drastically. I mean, you know, 19 once the -- all of the fascia and facade are 20 in, I mean, it will match the other side. 21 There's a -- there's a piece of molding, 22 as you can see, that's been missing there for 23 God knows how long, and no one mentioned that. 24 And there are windows in the house -- this 25 house has 52 windows, some of which can be Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 54 1 seen, some can't. I've tried to keep as many 2 as possible. As a matter of fact, this was the 3 only change to the entire structure. 4 So, I mean, I -- I'm empathetic to the 5 needs of the historic society, but, you know, 6 by the same token, there are budgetary 7 limitations and restrictions that I just can't 8 deal with, you know. I mean, I just -- and the 9 house was in neglect for about ten years and 10 empty for three, and no one was forthcoming to 11 go take on the challenge. So -- 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I drove by that house 13 today, and I appreciate what you -- 14 MR. COLÓN: Pardon me? 15 THE CHAIRMAN: I drove by that house 16 today, and I appreciate what you've been doing. 17 MR. COLÓN: It's a lot of work, I assure 18 you. I mean -- and most of it I didn't bargain 19 for, but I just found, you know, that in order 20 to restore it to -- I'm all for restoring it to 21 its original beauty, but, you know, one set of 22 windows isn't going make or break the house I 23 don't think, you know. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: The muntins that are on -- 25 MR. COLÓN: They're wooden. They're Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 55 1 wooden muntins, and they're exposed, you know. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. No, I understand 3 that. How are they attached to the sashes? 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Can they be removed? 5 MR. COLÓN: No. No. No. They can't be 6 moved. No. They're exterior -- 7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 8 MR. COLÓN: They're dental to -- I mean, 9 they're -- dental -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: They're mitered into the -- 11 MR. COLÓN: Mitered, yes, into the window 12 frame. Yes, exactly. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I was just asking if 14 the muntins could come off and be replaced with 15 muntins that would correspond to the six-light 16 muntins, 90 degrees to (inaudible) the historic 17 windows, and just put in horizontals. Then you 18 would get a similar proportion of the historic 19 window in the new windows, and I -- it would 20 probably be in the same room. 21 MR. COLÓN: But I think -- 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that -- is that one 23 room? 24 MR. COLÓN: Yes, sir. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 56 1 MR. COLÓN: I believe that -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you see what I -- do you 3 understand what I'm thinking? 4 MR. COLÓN: Yes, completely. 5 The pictures that -- the picture that I 6 provided you shows that -- it's not -- that -- 7 those windows in the rear were not the same as 8 the ones on the side. They're smaller. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you happen to have any 10 pictures from the inside that shows the framing 11 of the windows? 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: This is predating the 13 replacement that you've done? 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah. 15 Do you have any that shows those -- the 16 installed windows from the inside? 17 MR. COLÓN: I do, but not with me. I 18 didn't -- you know -- no. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: Did you have to fur in 20 from the header height at all for the window -- 21 MR. COLÓN: Pardon me? 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Did you have to fur in to 23 the windows at all? 24 MR. COLÓN: The windows are -- those 25 are -- the ones on the right are six. If Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 57 1 you'll be comparing it to that, the ones on the 2 left were smaller. That's the point that I'm 3 trying to make. They were never six light. 4 They weren't six lights. You can't compare the 5 ones on the right to the ones on the left. 6 They were different windows. 7 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, just for 8 clarification, I'm -- I'm counting the window 9 openings, just to try to follow along, and 10 you're talking the windows that were here 11 (indicating) were not -- on this side, where 12 you've already replaced them, they were not six 13 lights. It was just these that are six 14 lights -- 15 MR. COLÓN: They were smaller. 16 MS. PAULL: -- and these were smaller. 17 MR. COLÓN: Yeah, they were smaller. They 18 were smaller size windows. They might have 19 been six lights. I don't recall. 20 MS. PAULL: They were skinnier, though, is 21 what you're saying? 22 MR. COLÓN: Yeah, they were -- and 23 smaller. And smaller, yeah. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: But the picture that you 25 just gave us of -- showing the window openings Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 58 1 from the inside, the window openings look the 2 same size. 3 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. I replaced whatever 4 wood needed to be replaced in order to place 5 these windows in. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: So you shimmed in the 7 windows? 8 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: Okay. About how much did 10 you have to shim in? 11 MR. COLÓN: None -- well, about a half 12 inch from the bottom. The top, we had to -- 13 because the windows are a little smaller, 14 okay -- 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Uh-huh. 16 MR. COLÓN: -- they're -- I mean, they're, 17 you know, like, maybe a half a light shorter. 18 So from the header, the only solution that 19 I could offer is to raise the windows in the 20 opening to meet the header heights, but I can 21 do that with the molding. I can simulate that 22 with the molding, and the header height would 23 be the same. 24 As you can see, there's just -- I didn't 25 destroy the shakes. I only took out what Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 59 1 needed to be taken out, you know. I mean, I'm 2 sensitive to that, and I don't want to -- I 3 have siding for the house and haven't touched 4 it because I was waiting for approval, and it's 5 siding that is better than the siding on the 6 repairs that were done in the last four or five 7 years because it's original siding -- original 8 to, you know, the type of siding that was used. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: So the top of the windows 10 currently now are about three or four inches 11 lower than the old windows? 12 MR. COLÓN: Yeah, it's about that much, 13 yeah, which with molding -- I guesstimated that 14 with molding -- and I went and I looked at it 15 to see if I could comply before opening my 16 mouth, and I -- I'm almost positive I can, you 17 know. 18 And they are recessed. And once -- once 19 the shingles are in there, it'll be even more 20 recessed because there will -- you know, they 21 will join the bottom frame of the -- of the 22 window. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Does anybody else 24 have any questions of the applicant? 25 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 60 1 MS. MANSFIELD: Thank you, sir. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR. COLÓN: That's it? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 5 MR. COLÓN: Okay. Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else here 7 to speak? 8 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) 9 MS. BOYDSTON: This property, when it came 10 before Design Review, is -- we -- is another 11 one that we cheered. This restoration has been 12 a long, beautiful process, and the quality of 13 the restoration we're so impressed with. 14 The comment that was dominant in our 15 discussion was that -- this is the back of the 16 house and that it's very attractive. And I 17 hope you have looked at all the pictures to see 18 the structure all the way around the house, and 19 so that -- we do feel that any accommodation 20 for the owner's applicant -- application should 21 be -- should be considered because of the 22 investment that he has made in this house and 23 that it is attractive and it does not stand 24 out, in our estimation, to warrant anything but 25 a compromise. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 61 1 Thanks. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 Anyone else? 4 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 5 THE REPORTER: Name and address, please. 6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Jack Morgan, 3818 North 7 Canal Street. 8 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 9 hand for me, please. 10 MR. MORGAN: (Complies.) 11 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 12 testimony you are about to give will be the 13 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MR. MORGAN: Affirm. 16 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 17 MR. MORGAN: Hi. I met Mr. Colón just 18 recently concerning this property, but I've 19 done properties in Springfield and in historic 20 districts over the last ten years, so -- and 21 this is one of the properties -- as this lady 22 says, is a prize. And he is in a very 23 difficult situation, as you mentioned. 24 And another thing too, this house has some 25 optical illusions that make it appear -- you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 62 1 know, that things may not be the same. But 2 when you look at those windows -- and you can 3 picture, as I can picture, the finished 4 product -- there will be very little difference 5 between what you see there in the rear and the 6 side. 7 And, also, as you're looking at the side, 8 you've got two different elevations of windows 9 there right next to each other which throws 10 things off. So the overall character of that 11 house, once it's finished, it's going to be a 12 beautiful product. 13 I mean, all of the architectural amenities 14 are still in place. And what he's, you know, 15 fixing and working on really doesn't take away 16 from the character of the structure itself. 17 It's a beautiful house. And I've walked 18 through the property with Mr. Colón, and I've 19 seen his work. I'm familiar with the 20 contractor that worked on the project before 21 him, so I'm pretty familiar with this project, 22 and I -- I cheer it on myself. 23 Also, he's a typical investor type that 24 come from out of town that doesn't know the 25 system, and he found a good deal. He's all Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 63 1 gung-ho to get it all fixed up and didn't 2 realize what he had gotten himself into. I 3 work with a lot of people that get into those 4 situations, and all he really needs is someone 5 to guide him through the system. 6 It's obvious -- I'm sure he's convinced 7 you he's willing to do whatever it takes to get 8 this project going. 9 And I know for a fact that it takes a ton 10 of money to fix these houses up. I mean, 11 just -- you know, it takes $100,000 just to get 12 them in shape to get fixed, you know, and that 13 was when the times were good. In this economy, 14 there's no telling what it costs to put the 15 house together. 16 So I applaud him and I hope you guys allow 17 him to continue. 18 Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 20 Anyone else? 21 (Mr. Ullrich approaches the podium.) 22 MR. ULLRICH: Give my name again or -- 23 THE REPORTER: Just your name, please. 24 MR. ULLRICH: Johannes Ullrich, 25 U-l-l-r-i-c-h. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 64 1 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 2 MR ULLRICH: Okay. Yeah, I live around 3 the corner on 7th Street. It is on 6th and 4 Boulevard, that house. I met Ray just after he 5 bought it. He's the guy that bought the house. 6 A couple of months later, he started working on 7 it, not like Laura Street that was bought, 8 like, in 2003, and now they talk about tearing 9 it down. 10 We're not talking here about, like, you 11 know, a simulated, stamped, historic tri-face 12 but about a real historic house that has a 13 great chance of being, again, a great house 14 and -- with a family living in it. So I 15 think -- approve it, give him a hug and a kiss 16 and send him on his way, but don't hold him 17 anymore back. He's having more problems than 18 anybody that wants to demolish a house. 19 (Ms. Devall approaches the podium.) 20 MS. DEVALL: Gloria Devall. 21 I met Ray too. I had gotten a phone call 22 from someone saying, "There's a man over there 23 on Boulevard and he's all upset because he's 24 got to take out his casement windows." And I'm 25 thinking to myself he put in, like, trailer Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 65 1 park windows or something in there. So I go 2 down there and he's sitting there, he's got his 3 head in his hands, and he's -- I mean, he has 4 just had it. He's had it. And I looked at the 5 windows, and I was like, "Oh, well, this wasn't 6 what I was expecting at all." 7 The work he's doing -- and I feel 8 qualified to say, the work he's doing is 9 spectacular. He is restoring this house. He's 10 not rehabbing it. He's restoring it for 11 himself and these children he just adopted, who 12 he's bringing to the neighborhood. 13 This is exactly the type of people that 14 Springfield needs to come in and take a 15 challenge for this house. What he doesn't need 16 is he doesn't need frustration over what is, in 17 the large picture here, unimportant, to be 18 honest with you. 19 He's doing it right. He's restoring this 20 house. He's moving his family in. But I tell 21 you, people get to a point where they're just 22 going to throw up their hands and they're going 23 to say, "You know what? Heck with this." And 24 they're going to leave the houses to investors 25 who take out chimneys and leave holes in the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 66 1 roof. So there has to be some common sense 2 here with him. 3 He's -- also, if you're not from 4 Jacksonville, you don't really know that 5 there's two different code enforcements. You 6 know, you've got Code Enforcement saying you've 7 got to fix A, B, C, and D. And then you've got 8 Historic Code Enforcement saying you have to 9 fix A, B, C, and D. And it gets very 10 complicated. And that's where I think part of 11 this frustration came from. 12 So Preservation SOS is understanding that 13 if people get frustrated during the 14 preservation process, they will walk away and 15 leave the house. So we are encouraging you to 16 give him a little wiggle room. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 18 Anyone else? 19 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close 21 the public hearing. 22 (Ms. Sheppard enters the proceedings.) 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? 24 MS. MANSFIELD: I'd just like to make a 25 comment to some of the comments here. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 67 1 While it is very important to make sure 2 that we don't lose houses to demolition, it is 3 equally important that we don't lose houses 4 piecemeal by bad renovations. We have to 5 enforce the rules equally to everyone or else 6 we can't enforce them at all to anyone. 7 And we cannot sit here and make a judgment 8 of what we think looks better because we have 9 actual design regulations that we need to 10 follow. And we ask these questions with 11 specific purposes so that we know whether -- 12 what the facts are to apply to the rules that 13 apply and then make a decision based on that. 14 But to say that these sort of things are 15 silly and are going to prevent people from 16 wanting to restore their houses is the wrong 17 way to look at it, because if you just let 18 anyone put in any window they want and any size 19 they want, just because it's going to be a 20 window instead of an empty space, little by 21 little you won't have a historic district to 22 preserve. And that's just the way it is. 23 So while I appreciate your sentiments and 24 the hard work that this person has done -- he 25 has obviously done a lot to improve this house, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 68 1 and it looks wonderful -- the fact is -- is 2 that we have to treat everyone equally, and 3 that's why we're asking the questions that 4 we're asking. 5 And I was specifically wanting to know 6 about the size over the header of what had been 7 furred in because we do have people come to us 8 all the time saying, "Don't make me buy a 9 custom window. Let me put in stock. It's only 10 going to be six inches this way or six inches 11 that way." And when you do that on the facade 12 of a building, it really affects how it looks. 13 Now, that being said, this is on the back. 14 They look very nice, and it looks like it's 15 only a few inches off, so I think that's where 16 we should start our discussion. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. And I think I 18 will jump right in here. And Jennifer and I 19 are rarely on the same side in this window 20 discussion, so this is a red-letter day. 21 But, you know -- and I am usually the most 22 sort of -- I have the most latitude generally 23 when it comes to window replacements. 24 But when I look at the photographs that 25 came before us, it's very clear that -- when I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 69 1 look at the rest of the house, this was a 2 design -- all the other casement windows are a 3 pair of French-style casements. It's two 4 operating leaves with, you know, five or six 5 divided lights, and it's a very clear pattern 6 on the house. 7 So I understand and appreciate everybody's 8 support of the project and I heartily support 9 his efforts as well, but I'm not comfortable 10 with what I'm looking at. 11 And given the fact of the neighborhood 12 testimony and finding ways to accommodate what 13 is there and his investment, one of the things 14 I think we ought to consider -- the testimony, 15 is it's the back. Perhaps this last bank of 16 four windows is removed and shingled in because 17 I'm not comfortable seeing that bank of four 18 next to that French casement. And then he's 19 going to leave and preserve those and keep that 20 muntin style and have this new muntin style on 21 the side. You know, I'm not comfortable with 22 what I'm seeing. And I hate to do that -- 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Which one is closed in, 24 the ones closest to the corner? 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: This last bank of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 70 1 new, toward the corner. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, but that's where the 3 historic windows were. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Are there any of these 5 historic openings left? Do you have any of the 6 original casements? 7 MR. COLÓN: No, just the one that I took 8 to -- 9 MS. PAULL: Sir, I'm sorry. You have to 10 come up and talk on the microphone so our 11 court reporter can get it into her system. 12 Thank you. 13 (Mr. Colon approaches the podium.) 14 MR. COLÓN: The only one that I -- was 15 left was the window that I took, which was 16 fairly broken, to a gentleman to see what it 17 would cost to replicate. There are no other 18 windows left. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: What's there is -- 20 what's on the house, on the front, is -- but 21 you're going to match -- 22 MR. COLÓN: What's on the front? I'm 23 sorry? 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The window that's 25 missing on the front, where it says historic -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 71 1 MR. COLÓN: Oh, no. I have that. I have 2 those windows. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You're planning to put 4 that back in? 5 MR. COLÓN: Sure. Sure. And then I'm 6 going to remove the other two which has the 7 board across. I put that board there so the 8 windows wouldn't fall out, and I -- then I'll 9 take those out and repair them, you know. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Does it not bother you that 11 you've got two different muntin patterns in the 12 same room? 13 MR. COLÓN: When I look at it from the 14 inside and the light comes through, it's so 15 beautiful I don't really care. 16 Actually, the muntin pattern on the back 17 window, I -- you have the photograph that I 18 brought you. It was a little different. You 19 know, the windows were smaller. They were 20 narrower. These open as well, you know, out, 21 you know. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, the other 23 thing I would just offer to staff and to you 24 is, you know, I think a letter needs to be 25 drafted to this vendor because Monarch is a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 72 1 good product and they should know better than 2 to sell you a window without advising you to 3 get historic approval. 4 MR. COLÓN: I know -- 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: They sell windows in 6 Avondale, Riverside all the time. 7 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. Yeah. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And they -- 9 MR. COLÓN: No. I found out later -- when 10 I started doing extensive research on the 11 windows and found that these were not 12 acceptable, I was very surprised. 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It's not the product. 14 It's just the design of the replacement. Even 15 the muntin pattern, that can be very easily 16 changed in the manufacturing. Even with that 17 stock size, they can put in the muntin pattern 18 that is much more similar to what you already 19 have. 20 MR. COLÓN: Uh-huh. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Really to -- no or very 22 little additional cost, right? 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, essentially no 24 cost change. I mean, you specify the light 25 pattern when you make the order. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 73 1 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. No, they -- I ordered 2 casements, and that's what they gave me, you 3 know, so I thought it was fine. I had no way 4 of knowing that it would create a problem, you 5 know. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: Although I have to admit 7 that when I was looking at this -- you know, we 8 see this stuff all the time. The average 9 person doesn't. I didn't really catch the fact 10 that it had the different muntin pattern. 11 MR. ALLMAND: Yeah. I mean, it's on the 12 corner, right, from the others? I mean, if the 13 six light was right next to the four light on 14 the same plane -- 15 MS. MANSFIELD: Maybe. 16 MR. ALLMAND: -- that, you know -- 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'd like to move the 18 whole set further toward the rear. 19 MR. ALLMAND: And so, I mean, I think that 20 that would be one thing. I think it's -- 21 THE CHAIRMAN: That is rare. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, I mean, move it 23 more toward the center, so when you look at the 24 corner view of the house, you don't have 25 that -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 74 1 MR. ALLMAND: Is this house on a corner? 2 MR. COLÓN: Yes, sir. 3 MR. ALLMAND: Okay. 4 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, all of 5 these windows -- windows. All of these 6 photographs that you have -- 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh. 8 MS. PAULL: -- in the PowerPoint are taken 9 from the sidewalk or back. 10 MR. ALLMAND: Okay. Yeah, that's what 11 I -- 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So that's -- you're in 13 the yard in this photograph? You're, like, 14 standing in the side yard? 15 MS. PAULL: No. You can't -- we can't go 16 on people's property. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It's from the side? 18 MS. PAULL: Yes. 19 MR. COLÓN: Well, the frontal view is from 20 the yard. I -- Ms. Paull tries to convince me 21 that they were all taken from the street, 22 but -- 23 MS. PAULL: The ones that are -- 24 MR. COLÓN: -- it's impossible -- 25 MS. PAULL: The ones that are in this Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 75 1 PowerPoint. 2 MR. COLÓN: This -- may I see the other -- 3 the front view? 4 MS. PAULL: Those are just crop shots. 5 MR. COLÓN: No, the frontal -- yeah, that 6 one. That's -- 7 MS. PAULL: That (indicating)? 8 MR. COLÓN: Yeah. 9 MS. PAULL: That's a crop shot. 10 MR. COLÓN: That's a -- 11 MS. PAULL: I cropped it myself. 12 MR. COLÓN: Uh-huh. Yeah, but the angle 13 is not from the street. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: It's a close-up, you can 15 tell, from the same angle. 16 MR. COLÓN: Uh-huh. Yeah. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: It's that angle. 18 MS. PAULL: Yeah, it's the same thing. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, you have 20 wonderful support from the neighborhood. And 21 if they weren't here, I would be definitely, 22 like, "I'm voting no." But I would like for us 23 to discuss as body if there's ways to make 24 it -- and I may be the only one that thinks 25 that if they weren't completely adjacent, it Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 76 1 wouldn't be -- 2 MR. ALLMAND: Angela, look. There's a 3 four light right down there on the bottom. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Well, that's what I 5 mean. Every other casement is this French 6 style casement. It's a pair that -- two 7 operating leaves, and then there's no center 8 mullion. It -- you know, to me, they -- it 9 looks like a different -- completely different 10 animal, the casements that are installed, the 11 bank of four, the divided light in the middle, 12 the divided muntin. And it's unfortunate that 13 the muntins -- they cannot change them? 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, how feasible would 15 it be to just cut off the vertical center 16 muntin? 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think you would have 18 to -- 19 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what I was thinking. 20 MR. MANSFIELD: I don't know. 21 MR. COLÓN: She'd have to break the 22 window. I don't know. I have never explored 23 that. It wasn't a consideration. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: Are these double glazed 25 with something in between them? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 77 1 MR. COLÓN: I believe they are, yeah. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Is there a -- when you 3 look at the window from the inside -- sometimes 4 there's wood on the inside and then a little 5 spacer bar and then the wood on the outside. 6 Do you see that or -- 7 MR. COLÓN: No. It's wood completely 8 through, but there are two panes of glass, so I 9 don't know what keeps -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a spacer. 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: There's a spacer bar, so 12 there's no changing these down here. 13 MR. ALLMAND: This lighting pattern, 14 though, exists on the house. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: No, it doesn't. 16 MR. ALLMAND: Yeah. It -- go back -- can 17 you go back one more? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. 19 MR. COLÓN: On the bottom right. 20 MR. ALLMAND: It's right there, on the 21 bottom right. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: But those are a casement 23 with two panes that open out and they don't 24 have a vertical muntin in them, which is the 25 same as the upstairs window. It has four Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 78 1 lights instead of six, but it's the same style. 2 MR. ALLMAND: Touché. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: There was such a hodgepodge 4 on this house to begin with. 5 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I know. It's a 6 wonderful house. And I -- you know, part of 7 this is just -- I want to go on the record -- 8 when you replace a window -- that's why I'm 9 frustrated with this vendor because I know they 10 know better -- is that -- you know, you don't 11 start moving the supporting members because 12 once you do, you've migrated away from the 13 traditional opening. 14 MR. COLÓN: Uh-huh. 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And by that, I mean, 16 that's where -- you see those little cased 17 sections. You know, there's, like, a 1-by-5 18 casing, and the window was in that. And when 19 you started to break away from that pattern, 20 you're going to break away from the traditional 21 openings. And that was pretty clear in one of 22 those photographs that you passed around, that 23 there were -- that these were casement pairs 24 down that side. 25 So I just want to go on the record that, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 79 1 you know, I think the support from the 2 neighborhood is very strong in this case. And 3 certainly the quality of the restoration has 4 earned you some latitude with the work you're 5 doing here, but -- but I'm uncomfortable when 6 we start allowing window replacements which 7 really differentiate from the original 8 openings. 9 I actually, typically, am in favor of 10 replacement products when they are of a quality 11 that's -- 12 MR. COLÓN: Uh-huh. 13 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- commensurate with the 14 house, and I think this product is, but I don't 15 like the fact that they're -- they're a totally 16 different scale product from what was in the 17 original house. 18 I think I'll let the motion come from that 19 end of the table. 20 MS. MANSFIELD: Let them do it for once, 21 right? 22 MR. ALLMAND: I'll make a motion. 23 I make a motion that we approve the 24 windows as they have been installed. 25 MR. THOMPSON: I'll second it. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 80 1 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, did you 2 want to add any conditions to make him restore 3 trim to replicate the historic -- to make them 4 appear like they're recessed? 5 MS. MANSFIELD: Such as are in the staff 6 report. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: In the staff report. 8 MR. COLÓN: They will be, yeah. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You would have to -- you 10 would have to lose one and three. 11 MS. ALLMAND: Yeah. I'm okay with 12 recommendation 2, but approved with the second 13 recommendation. 14 MS. PAULL: You mean the second condition? 15 MR. ALLMAND: Condition. Sorry. 16 MS. PAULL: Okay. Sorry, just for 17 clarification. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a 19 second. 20 Any further discussion? 21 MS. MANSFIELD: I'd just be interested 22 in -- for future applicants, what distinguishes 23 this application from others who want to come 24 in and fur in the window openings and put in 25 windows that don't match the rest of the house. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 81 1 MR. THOMPSON: I think that every 2 application -- every application is different, 3 every condition is different. And we often 4 make decisions that vary with opinions, and 5 everything is not a black and white solution. 6 But I think that, given the testimony, we are 7 making a recommendation. It hasn't been 8 approved yet, but it's based on the testimony 9 that is given. 10 And also I -- you know, I listen very 11 carefully to what the Springfield community 12 says, and that helps me a lot in deciding which 13 way to go. 14 MR. ALLMAND: I agree. And I also think 15 that the conditions -- I think it isn't a black 16 and white thing, and I do think that the 17 conditions exist here, that they aren't on the 18 same plane. And you, yourself, said you 19 couldn't really tell the difference, and so is 20 it -- is it really distracting from the 21 historical -- of someone walking down the 22 street, they say, "Oh, those aren't. Those 23 aren't." I mean, is it distracting really from 24 a community standpoint or is this more of an 25 academic discussion? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 82 1 And -- and so, to me, they look the same. 2 And, yes, they are smaller. And, yes, I do -- 3 you know, if another applicant came and said, 4 "We're going to put another window in that's a 5 different size," I mean, I would treat -- you 6 know, I would want -- I would treat that the 7 same way I'm treating this. And if it was, you 8 know, way off or close, I mean, I would -- I 9 would use my judgment based on that. And so 10 that's why I made the -- you know, the motion 11 that I did. 12 MR. TEAL: And also, if I could point out, 13 I did hear some testimony that there are a 14 variety of different window and lighting 15 patterns on this particular structure, and 16 that, in essence -- as far as the criteria go 17 under Chapter 307, it does talk about the 18 extent to which the arrangements or -- I guess, 19 fits in with the overall structure. 20 And so this particular structure might be 21 considered unique given the fact that it 22 already does have a variety of lighting styles 23 and window heights, specifically as exhibited 24 on the two, I guess, windows by the green arrow 25 right next to each other are different heights. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 83 1 So there is some precedent within the structure 2 itself in having varying heights, if not on the 3 same elevation or the same facade -- or 4 actually on the same facade, and so wrapping a 5 corner like it does isn't necessarily out of 6 place either. 7 So for purposes of why this one is 8 particularly unique, that might be another 9 thing that the commission could consider. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 11 Any further discussion? 12 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a 14 second. 15 All those in favor, aye. 16 Aye. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: Aye. 18 MR. THOMPSON: Aye. 19 MR. ALLMAND: Aye. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: No. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have 23 approved COA-11-107 with a condition. 24 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, we're still 25 waiting for Mr. Poole to arrive. He's got the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 84 1 two items. And he assured me he would be here, 2 but late. He was here last month, and I guess 3 he just didn't believe they would be this 4 early. 5 So, anyway, to go ahead and keep things 6 moving along, if it's okay with the Commission, 7 can we go ahead and address the new business 8 items, in particular these three legislations 9 and give you a quick update on them? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we quickly answer 11 Mr. Murray's questions regarding his case that 12 was deferred -- 13 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah. Sure. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: -- so he doesn't have to 15 hang around? 16 (Mr. Murray approaches the podium.) 17 MR. MURRAY: Michael Murray. 18 May we go back to the photograph? 19 MS. PAULL: (Complies.) 20 MR. MURRAY: The question I had is -- 21 actually, scroll through the other ones you 22 had. And these are all the ones that were 23 taken on the 4th? 24 MS. PAULL: Yes, these are all the ones 25 that I took. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 85 1 MR. MURRAY: I had two questions. 2 One, I understand that under the Municipal 3 Code -- and I read it because it didn't have 4 any other guidance -- there's an exception to 5 certificate of appropriateness where the 6 replacement of windows with ones comparable in 7 size and style with the original don't need a 8 COA. And that is exactly what we've proposed, 9 is an identical match, custom made, for that 10 window box. So I'm not actually sure why we're 11 here. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: They do require a COA. 13 MR. MURRAY: Then why is the exception in 14 the code? 15 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, while Jason 16 is looking up the specific section of the 17 ordinance in his records -- or in his book, 18 part of the reason why the applicant was 19 forwarded to the Commission, and the 20 application itself, was because the evidence 21 that was presented to us originally did not 22 meet the threshold of the windows requiring 23 replacement. 24 MR. MURRAY: Right. And -- 25 MS. PAULL: They were cited as having Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 86 1 glazing issues, painted shut, broken sash 2 cords, and rusted locks, which are actually 3 partially stated in the window survey form as 4 reasons that we don't approve replacement, 5 specifically painted shut and broken glass. 6 MR. MURRAY: And I'll just point out that 7 as a homeowner, nobody tells you these things. 8 So we go through a process where we provide 9 what's asked. And then they say, "Well, get it 10 to us by this date." And we've done that. And 11 we -- and I think today -- or yesterday I sent 12 you -- because you asked me to get you 13 photographs of the interior by the 22nd, and I 14 e-mailed you those. And I have -- I've got the 15 inside and outside photos. 16 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, you have -- 17 there's a copy of the e-mails and photographs 18 that accompanied them that Mr. Murray sent to 19 me yesterday that -- 20 (Simultaneous speaking.) 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, maybe it would 22 be safer to answer your original question 23 because I feel like we're drifting into an 24 assessment of your application which -- maybe 25 it's inappropriate. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 87 1 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, the regulations 2 always provide for repair over replacement. 3 MR. MURRAY: Right. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: So if they're capable of 5 being repaired, that's what they should do. 6 MR. MURRAY: Right. 7 MS. MANSFIELD: So where it has 8 "exception" here about replacement of the 9 window, that assumes that it's beyond repair -- 10 MR. MURRAY: Right. 11 MS. MANSFIELD: -- and replacement is 12 appropriate. 13 My understanding from reading the 14 application last night, to prepare for the 15 meeting, was that staff doesn't agree that the 16 windows need to be replaced, that they are 17 capable of being repaired. And when that 18 happens, it's sent to the Commission for a full 19 hearing. 20 MR. MURRAY: Okay. But, I mean, is -- 21 where is the expertise of the staff? I mean, 22 is somebody a licensed contractor that looks at 23 this and says, "You can fix these"? 24 MS. MANSFIELD: They have years of 25 experience, including education and degrees, in Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 88 1 historic preservation. And so, rest assured, 2 they have a lot of experience evaluating the 3 condition of windows. 4 MR. MURRAY: All right. No one has a 5 general contractor's license that makes a 6 determination because -- and we all know in the 7 state of Florida, if you're going to have a -- 8 put a valuation on something, you can't do that 9 without having a general contractor's license. 10 MS. MANSFIELD: I understand you're 11 agreeing [sic] with the procedure, but that's 12 the procedure. 13 MR. MURRAY: Okay. The last question I 14 have is about the time frame for these -- you 15 know, the point about the -- not having the 16 sign out. 17 Now, I have the e-mails from Samantha 18 Paull where she said that the evidence that 19 they had was a photograph from the building 20 inspector. And we all have heard her say that 21 the pictures that she has here were taken on 22 4th, which is before the 8th, which has no 23 meaning at all as far as evidence. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: The testimony from staff 25 was that she sent the inspector out to look at Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 89 1 the property. He reported back to her that the 2 sign was not there. We are allowed to accept 3 that testimony. There's nothing in the law 4 preventing us from doing that. 5 Then we make a finding of fact based on 6 that. And based on that, our chairman decided 7 that in order to ensure that the public had 8 adequate notice and opportunity to respond 9 under the law, which is their right to have 10 prior notice of these types of actions, that it 11 was better to defer the action. 12 MR. MURRAY: And then I understand I have 13 an appeal, right? 14 MR. TEAL: Mr. Chairman, not that it may 15 make any bearing at all on your determination 16 to defer this, I don't think it will, but can 17 we hear what kind of hardship this particular 18 applicant will suffer by having to wait an 19 extra month? 20 It doesn't sounds like this is a project 21 that is in flux or that he's got a gaping hole 22 in the side of his house or there's anything 23 else that is preventing him from waiting an 24 extra month. You know, that might be helpful 25 for the Commission to understand, if he does Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 90 1 have that overarching concern, that he would be 2 able to present that to you. 3 MR. MURRAY: Well, I mean, there is 4 economic hardship because basically the project 5 gets stalled. We're at the point now, you 6 know, after doing interior repairs to the lath 7 and plaster, that it's ready to be painted. 8 So, essentially, you know, how you approach 9 painting it and rebuilding the trim is going to 10 depend on what you do with the windows. 11 And, you know, after -- and I explained 12 this. I think you've probably all had a chance 13 to read it. The -- what we found with the 14 windows is that -- we first dismantled some to 15 see what it would take to fix it and to see if 16 it was feasible. 17 The -- but when you dismantle it, the wood 18 breaks because it's -- the nails are rusted in 19 and they don't let go. So what ends up 20 happening is -- to make the repair, you have to 21 remove all the interior trim, and that -- I 22 mean, I realize that you guys are concerned 23 about the outside, but, you know, we're 24 concerned about the inside. 25 So what we have is -- we'd like to not Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 91 1 stall the project. If everything else meets 2 the requirements, which we have taken great 3 pains to do -- and so the house will look 4 exactly the way it does now. The only 5 difference is -- is that it will have a 6 replacement window that -- rather than the 7 original. 8 And we've looked up the costs. I got 9 different quotes. One from our supplier for 10 the windows, one from the people that are 11 experts in restoring windows, and what it would 12 cost to replace it with a wood window. And, 13 you know, it's -- it will cost significantly 14 more to fix them than it will to replace them. 15 And when you walk by, you will not see it 16 at all. I mean, you can just catch the 17 neighbor's house that has a plywood fill over 18 their arch with windows built in, and the 19 people across the street have jalousie windows. 20 I mean, what we're doing here is going to be 21 nicer than anything else there, and they will 22 be indistinguishable. It's the exact same 23 window. 24 So deferring this for a month is not -- is 25 not going to help us have a -- have a -- you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 92 1 know, it's just going to push back. 2 MR. TEAL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to 3 also point out that -- first of all, with 4 regard to the question as to whether or not 5 this requires a certificate of appropriateness, 6 Section 307.103 specifically says that, "Each 7 designation of a historic district shall set 8 forth the design guidelines that apply to the 9 historic district and the actions that would 10 require a certificate of appropriateness." 11 When this district was formed, one of the 12 specific things that was in the ordinance 13 creating the historic district specifically 14 said, Window replacements shall require a 15 certificate of appropriateness. So that's 16 where the requirement comes from to get a COA 17 for window replacements in Riverside/Avondale. 18 The other thing that I would like to point 19 out is, in addition to it being required as a 20 mandatory deferral in your bylaws -- the 21 section that was referred to earlier by 22 Mr. Murray, the second to last sentence of that 23 section in the Ordinance Code says, "If the 24 signs are not posted within the time 25 requirements, the public hearing notice will be Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 93 1 deemed inadequate and no action shall be taken 2 until proper posting is accomplished." 3 So it is actually in the Ordinance Code as 4 well, that if the signs aren't posted, it's 5 deemed inadequate. And, from a practical 6 standpoint, I would hate to have you take this 7 item up, somebody come in later and say, "I 8 didn't receive proper notice." It would 9 completely invalidate what you did. We'd be 10 right back at square one. And I really haven't 11 heard anything today that screams out take this 12 up now and risk having that happen and being in 13 violation of the Ordinance Code. 14 MR. MURRAY: But there's really no -- 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 16 MR. MURRAY: There's no real risk. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 18 Okay. I'm going to stay with the original 19 deferral and play by the rules. 20 Is this your guy? 21 MR. McEACHIN: You would know if he's 22 here. He's about six-five. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, okay. 24 MR. McEACHIN: No, he hasn't arrived yet. 25 So we could go on with these other Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 94 1 matters. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you need a break? We'll 3 take a ten-minute break. 4 (Brief recess.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We're back in 6 session and we are going to review item 7 number 1, COA-11-067, 26 West 7th Street. 8 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, members of 9 the Commission, what's being requested here is 10 a -- construction of a two-story garage 11 apartment and -- behind -- actually, behind and 12 to the side of the residence at 26 West 7th 13 Street. 14 This is the primary structure here 15 (indicating). At one time there was a house 16 here that's -- that was demolished years ago. 17 Now these two lots are under a single 18 ownership. They're considered one parcel. And 19 this is an alley right -- going in here 20 (indicating). 21 You continue on from the alley and you see 22 the side of the house here (indicating). If 23 you continue on in the alley, you'll notice 24 back here is a -- a pad, and the applicant is 25 proposing to build a garage apartment on that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 95 1 pad. The pad itself -- the concrete pad is 2 28 by 32. 3 Here's another look at the pad a little 4 closer (indicating). 5 You notice that behind it is a one-story 6 lodge building that faces West 6th Street. 7 And, again, this is standing on the pad looking 8 back to West 7th Street, so the garage will be 9 visible from West 7th Street and possibly from 10 an angle of Main Street, over in this direction 11 (indicating), as well as the vacant properties 12 on the west side of the primary residence, 13 which would also make it visible as well. 14 And, again, you can see from here 15 (indicating), this is 7th Street, so you can 16 see how open this property is in here. And, 17 again, that's just looking back behind the 18 house from 7th Street, back over in here. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It looks -- I'm having 20 trouble understanding the documents. It looks 21 like the broad elevation of the slab is -- 22 well, there's kind of conflicting 23 information -- faces alley, right side 24 elevation, but it appears that the proportion 25 of the slab is -- the long side is -- I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 96 1 guess -- here's the question: Which elevation 2 do the garage doors face? Do they face the 3 street? 4 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. Well, that -- that's 5 going to be part of the report. 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. 7 MR. McEACHIN: The application, as it's 8 submitted, will have the garage facing the 9 alley. It would -- can you go back to that 10 slide? 11 MS. PAULL: Which one? 12 MR. McEACHIN: Right here. 13 It will be facing the alley, so it will be 14 right here (indicating). 15 But he did talk to me and wanted the 16 option of going 90 degrees and having the 17 garage doors face 7th Street, which would allow 18 him a little more maneuvering room to be able 19 to get his automobile into the garage. That's 20 why you have the two options. 21 Now, that will modify the pad. It may 22 well be that some of the pad will have to be 23 cut or something. He -- Mr. Poole can talk 24 about that. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: What actually are we going Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 97 1 commit to, one of the options? 2 MR. McEACHIN: Under the conditions that I 3 have, basically the -- the condition is that he 4 would have the opportunity to do either option. 5 The elevations won't change, per our 6 conditions, just where they may be facing might 7 change, but we would still have the same 8 conditions. And I can go ahead and read those 9 conditions in the record, if you would like. 10 The first one is that garage bay can face 11 either the alley or West 7th Street, which 12 means it will be turned 90 degrees; that the 13 rear-facing elevation -- the one that's going 14 to face south -- should have at least two 15 windows; the elevation that has a window on the 16 upper floor and a pedestrian door on the 17 downstairs, that elevation -- that that window 18 be modified to have a vertical orientation and 19 that there be an addition of another window on 20 that elevation; that the garage bays have 21 carriage-style doors; that the size and 22 location of the proposed garage meet all zoning 23 requirements, including setbacks and square 24 footage; that a new scaled site plan is 25 submitted showing the orientation of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 98 1 elevations, the footprint, and the placement of 2 any associated driveways; and, number 7, that 3 final construction site plans, including 4 location and material of any associated 5 driveways, be reviewed and approved by the 6 Planning and Development Department for -- 7 submitted for permitting. 8 And the reason we put those conditions in 9 is that, when he does make that decision, we 10 want to make sure that those -- that what he's 11 going to construct, it reflects the conditions 12 of the commission, but also that the elevations 13 are -- are reflective of what was approved. 14 And, finally -- the final condition is 15 that the -- any -- if it's not the -- if the 16 bays don't face -- any elevation facing the 17 alley will have at least two -- will have at 18 least two windows on the upper level, but we're 19 not requiring that he has windows on the lower 20 level since he's along the alley. However, if 21 he wants to, that's fine. 22 I'll be happy to answer any more 23 questions, but I think the applicant probably 24 could answer some of these. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions for staff? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 99 1 COMMISSION MEMBERS: (No response.) 2 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public 3 hearing. 4 (Audience member approaches the podium.) 5 THE CHAIRMAN: You have to state your name 6 and address and be sworn in. 7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. Name is Stacey 8 Poole. Address, 26 West 7th Street. 9 That was -- phone number, 904 -- what was 10 that? Name, address, and what else? 11 THE REPORTER: You're good. 12 MR. POOLE: Oh, swear. Okay. Okay. 13 THE REPORTER: Would you raise your right 14 hand for me, please. 15 MR. POOLE: (Complies.) 16 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the 17 testimony you are about to give will be the 18 truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the 19 truth? 20 MR. POOLE: Yes. 21 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 22 MR. POOLE: All right. Well, first of 23 all, with the decision -- the decision will be 24 made -- we're actually working with a landscape 25 architect, so we're actually setting it back up Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 100 1 as far as, you know, placing the pool there. 2 We had some questions with the City in 3 reference to trees and things of that sort. 4 So right now we're just really in the 5 development phase, but I wanted to get this out 6 of the way because, you're right, it would 7 either face -- the garage door is going to 8 either face north or it will face the alley; 9 you know, one or the other, and -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: First off, to maybe shorten 11 everything, do you have any problem with the 12 staff conditions as presented by the staff? 13 MR. POOLE: No, no problems with what we 14 discussed. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: Do you have a preference 17 for which option, which one you're leaning 18 towards? 19 MR. POOLE: My wife, she'll have a 20 preference, but right now, we -- I don't have a 21 preference. I'm just doing what I'm told right 22 now. So once this is finished with the 23 architect -- with the landscape architect, 24 then, you know, whatever way she likes, that's 25 what we're going to go with. So that's where Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 101 1 I'm at right now. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible) giving her the 3 option. 4 MR. POOLE: Yeah. 5 MS. MANSFIELD: Well -- 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Let me -- 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Sorry. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I guess I'm concerned -- 9 I'm looking at all these nice trees and I'm 10 thinking about a front-facing driveway and 11 garage doors, and I -- I would encourage you to 12 use the alley if at all possible because I'm 13 not sure how you get into it without removing 14 trees if you -- 15 MR. POOLE: Now, the trees are more so for 16 the -- the trees are more so for the pool. 17 Something is going to have to be moved, based 18 on where we decide to put the -- place the 19 pool. But based on how we're -- how the 20 driveway -- if the driveway is facing -- what 21 is that -- north, you know, we're going to use 22 the alley anyway to get to the driveway, so 23 it's -- 24 (Simultaneous speaking.) 25 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah, that's what I was Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 102 1 going to make -- will make clear. The driveway 2 wasn't -- the driveway is not going to go all 3 the way to 7th Street. They're going to go 4 down the alley and then turn in to the -- to 5 the -- 6 MS. MANSFIELD: That was going to be my 7 question, was, how is the driveway going to be 8 configured, then? Are you going to come out 9 the front and then loop back into the alley, 10 and what would that look like? And -- 11 MR. POOLE: Correct. 12 What we're looking at is actually using 13 pavers where you're coming up the alley and 14 then veering off to the right and then lining 15 it back up with the garage doors. It's like a 16 little driveway, but it will be -- we're 17 probably looking to use pavers. Instead of 18 going up the alley, making a left directly into 19 the -- 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The garage? 21 MR. POOLE: -- the garage, correct. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I'm just going to throw 23 this out, and I -- I don't want to slow you 24 down, but -- the slab is there, but I would not 25 let that determine your garage placement for a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 103 1 couple of reasons. A, structurally, the 2 structural engineer is probably not going to be 3 able to make all that much use out of it. I 4 mean, he's still going to have a footer around 5 your garage, especially with a two-story 6 building -- 7 MR. POOLE: Correct. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- unless he can really 9 determine what's in the ground, so it -- it may 10 not help you that much structurally, and -- and 11 the flipside of that is -- you know, I don't 12 know how far the trees are in front of this 13 pad, but, you know, you need 20-plus feet to 14 back out of the garage and -- you know, if 15 there's a way to slide this, you know, garage 16 further away from the alley so you can pull in 17 from the side, I think you would be -- at the 18 end of the day, have a nicer solution, you 19 know? 20 So I'm just encouraging you to use the 21 alley and -- and especially -- just because of 22 the drive constraint. I'm trying to 23 visualize -- I can't tell exactly where the 24 trees are, but they look -- 25 MR. POOLE: If anything would have to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 104 1 happen, the trees would have to be pruned up, 2 not necessarily moved, if we went south. You 3 have to -- actually have to go out there and 4 see it. It's a little wider than you would 5 think. And then we're going to cap the -- what 6 is that -- the slab anyway. The slab is being 7 capped, and the footer, so -- so the slab is 8 really irrelevant, you know, technically. 9 We're just not looking to pull it out for cost 10 reasons, and -- yeah, so we can cap it off. So 11 whichever way we decide to go, it really 12 doesn't make a difference, but it's basically 13 going to be my wife's preference. 14 But we've looked at it, and -- and outside 15 of pruning the trees up, that's -- actually, 16 that tree there that's closer to the garage is 17 not the tree that we're actually looking to 18 move or the trees that we're actually looking 19 to move. It's the trees that will be in the 20 way of the pool or the roots that would get in 21 the way of us, you know, digging, you know, 22 of -- installation of the pool. 23 So it's really not there near the garage; 24 it's actually behind the garage. Let's say if 25 we face -- the garage is facing the alley. The Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 105 1 garage facing the alley, it will be the trees 2 behind it that we would possibly move or -- 3 let's say if I put the pool behind the -- the 4 actual house, behind the deck, there's going to 5 be -- there will be trees to the left of that 6 that's going to have to be moved. So something 7 would have to be moved, but technically the 8 garage is not the issue as far as trees. It's 9 more so the pool. 10 MS. MANSFIELD: But if you had the garage 11 facing the front -- with the driveway that goes 12 with it, when you excavate all that land, 13 you're going to hit the roots of those trees 14 that are nearby because the roots will go out 15 as far as the canopy -- 16 MR. POOLE: As far as the canopy, correct. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: -- so you really have a 18 danger of killing those trees. 19 And also, I agree, because the -- I think 20 in that placement, it would probably be a 21 little more traditional to have it face the 22 alley. You don't lose as much of your yard 23 either. 24 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Uh-huh. That's what -- 25 I think you will end up with more yard if you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 106 1 use the alley access. 2 But, I mean, some -- you've got the pool, 3 you've got a lot of things going on, and -- I 4 guess I'd like to see your hardscape solution 5 before -- if you do the front-facing garage, 6 just before we -- before I approve something 7 that -- because it's so visible. Are you -- 8 you know, it -- I know it's way at the back of 9 the lot, but it seems to be awfully visible, 10 looking at these photographs, so -- where is 11 the pool going, do you have an idea? 12 MR. POOLE: Not yet. We're actually 13 looking to put the pool possibly behind the 14 garage apartment or behind the house, so one or 15 the other. But, regardless, wherever we decide 16 to put it, those trees are going to have to be 17 moved because of the canopy, because of the 18 roots -- the root system and things of that 19 sort. There will be trees that has to -- that 20 will have to move. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: I'm just -- with a 22 front-facing garage, I just envision a whole 23 lot of hardscaping and driveway area that we 24 would normally require to be included in the 25 plans. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 107 1 MR. POOLE: Right. There will be plans as 2 far as the -- once we finish the landscape -- 3 once we finish the -- once we finish with the 4 landscape architect, there will be, you know, a 5 landscape, you know, design, so you guys will 6 be able to see it. All that property is going 7 to be fenced off anyway. The front part of 8 that property is going to be fenced off, so 9 regardless of if -- there won't be anything 10 that's visible as far as the driveway or things 11 of that sort, but we're not running the 12 driveway from 7th Street back to the end of 13 that property. We're going to use the alley. 14 It should be a small, little entrance that we 15 enter into the -- enter into the garage if we 16 are facing south, but it's still up in the air. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's a difficult place 18 for us to make a decision. 19 MR. POOLE: Right. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: When you -- unless -- 21 well, they may be to the front, they may be to 22 the side. I have a hard time assessing what 23 I'm voting for, and I -- I'm not -- 24 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just -- I'm wondering 25 if it may be in your best interest to defer Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 108 1 this until you guys make a decision on which 2 way you're going to go and present the garage 3 apartment with a landscape/hardscape plan. 4 MR. POOLE: Okay. Now, if we put the plan 5 in -- question. You put the plan in -- now, 6 we're talking about trees also because this 7 wouldn't have been an issue outside of the 8 trees. So you're saying within this landscape 9 plan, we want those trees to stay? Is that 10 what you guys are looking at? 11 MS. MANSFIELD: No. 12 MR. POOLE: What are you guys asking for? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: No. We're saying a plan, 14 show where the garage is, show where your 15 paving is, show us where you're going to 16 ultimately put the pool so that we can look at 17 it as a complete thought of what you're 18 actually going to do, so you don't have to keep 19 coming back every time you do something more. 20 MR. POOLE: Okay. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And the reason is -- you 22 know, you -- you may get more latitude from the 23 commission if it's -- you know, if there's 24 fencing and some of the trees remain, even if 25 the garage is -- it's hard to tell without Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 109 1 being able to really see on paper what your 2 total site plan is. There may be a lovely 3 fence coming down the alley and there's very 4 little visibility to this paved -- if the 5 garage faces front or -- you know, that's why 6 I'd like to see it. It's just -- 7 MR. POOLE: Okay. You want to see -- 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Just your site plan. 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- (inaudible) if the 11 trees are nice, we'd love to see you keep 12 the -- 13 MR. POOLE: But the trees -- right. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: We don't have any 15 authority to tell you don't touch the trees. I 16 don't know who does, so -- 17 MR. POOLE: Right. 18 MS. SCHIFANELLA: But when you know where 19 your pool is and your fencing is and your 20 garage, which way it's facing, I think it -- it 21 will be a lot easier for us to say, "Oh, well, 22 put that window right there and then you're 23 free to go." 24 MR. POOLE: Okay. 25 MR. THOMPSON: Will there be a hardship on Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 110 1 you if this gets deferred for a month? 2 MR. POOLE: What did you say, a hardship? 3 No. We'll be fine. 4 We're trying to most definitely use 5 those -- those usable days for the pool, so 6 we're actually looking to initiate that 7 probably within the next few weeks, but I'll 8 just let her know. We may have to just push it 9 back for -- for a month. They said it's about 10 14 -- 14 to 15 days to complete, so -- 11 THE CHAIRMAN: If you're planning to put a 12 pool in, you've got to start doing the design 13 work on that stuff now, so get all your ducks 14 in a row and then come back -- 15 MR. POOLE: Now, do I have to come back to 16 you guys in reference to a pool as well? I 17 don't have to come to the board for a pool, do 18 I? 19 MR. McEACHIN: The pool is something that 20 we usually approve administratively -- 21 MR. POOLE: Okay. 22 MR. McEACHIN: -- assuming there's no 23 cover over it or anything like that -- 24 MR. POOLE: Correct. 25 MR. McEACHIN: -- a screen. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 111 1 THE CHAIRMAN: But, in this case, the 2 location of the pool could determine where and 3 which way the garage apartment faces. 4 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah, that's -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: So I'm suggesting we defer 6 this item, let him go back and finish his 7 design work, locate the pool, locate any 8 fencing, locate the building and the 9 orientation that he wants, and then bring it 10 back as a final, complete thought that we can 11 approve. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: And just to clarify, when 13 you say, do I need to come to you for the 14 pool -- 15 MR. POOLE: Correct. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: -- you need a COA. It's 17 just that you don't have to come here. They 18 might be able to do it administratively, but 19 you do need a COA. 20 MR. POOLE: Right. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: So you're good with that? 22 MR. POOLE: So we're good. I -- I don't 23 have a choice. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Then I will -- 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Could I ask a question Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 112 1 for staff? Because I'm curious. And you might 2 want to hear the answer. 3 In the Riverside Avondale zoning 4 overlay -- I don't know if Springfield has -- 5 does it have a zoning overlay as well? 6 MR. TEAL: Yes. 7 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Does it say anything 8 about pool setbacks? I was actually 9 researching this this morning. 10 MR. TEAL: No. 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: So it's just whatever is 12 in the normal building code, as an accessory 13 structure? 14 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, anything 15 that -- it has been deemed that anything that 16 has a roof, including a pergola, has to meet 17 setbacks -- or that -- a pergola is included as 18 a roof under their definitions because you 19 wouldn't want your pergola -- you wouldn't want 20 somebody else's -- your neighbor's pergola in 21 your yard or right up against that. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Okay. 23 MS. PAULL: Pools and hardscaping and 24 decks are not included in that setback. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The zoning code Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 113 1 considers a pool an accessory structure, and so 2 I was assuming it met the accessory structure 3 setbacks. But then in the overlay, it's not -- 4 you know, I didn't know if anything -- so you 5 guys consider it part of the ground plane -- 6 MR. McEACHIN: Yes. 7 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- and not -- 8 MS. PAULL: Yes. 9 And in the overlay, accessory structures 10 have a one-foot setback from the eaves, so -- I 11 mean, a one-foot setback potentially -- we 12 would have to ask for specific clarification, 13 but from what we've discussed before with 14 zoning, I don't see anything like that 15 regarding hardscapes. 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Thank you. 17 MR. ALLMAND: I have a question real 18 quick. 19 Is there anything about -- I mean, is 20 there a recommendation or did you guys think 21 about making a recommendation that this 22 structure look something like the house that 23 it's next to? Is that even a requirement or -- 24 MR. McEACHIN: It's not a requirement. 25 The reason why is, in Springfield, most of Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 114 1 these houses did not originally have garages. 2 They were built before the automobile was 3 popular. A good number of Springfield garages 4 are after the fact and many times they, 5 stylistically, do not match the house, which 6 is, of course, different than in Avondale where 7 you see a lot of that kind of stuff. 8 We do always recommend that people 9 consider trying to match some of the features 10 of the house, but it's sitting so far back, 11 meeting the basic new construction standards, 12 we didn't think it should be a condition, to 13 have a hip roof and metal roof and so forth. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: I don't -- I just wanted 15 to be able to articulate this. I don't think 16 we'd do anything about it, but just to express 17 a concern. I just -- I've seen now, since I've 18 been on the commission, three or four of these 19 where the garage is being put on an empty lot 20 next door. It just seems that if we continue 21 to do this, we're going to wind up with a 22 district that is characterized by a lot of 23 narrow lots, houses next to each other, into a 24 district with a lot of wide double lots, and -- 25 and I don't know -- I wouldn't suggest doing Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 115 1 something with that -- with this application, 2 but I think it's something to consider for the 3 future. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We're deferring your item 5 until next month. So if you could get all your 6 ducks in a row, we'll hear the entire project 7 as designed next month. 8 MR. POOLE: Okay. That's fine. 9 MR. THOMPSON: You could send your wife if 10 you'd like. 11 MR. POOLE: The decision will be made by 12 then or at least those options. 13 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) 14 MS. BOYDSTON: I have a few things I'd 15 like to cover on this because you know our 16 passion about the alleys, and this is -- as 17 Mr. Poole was saying, it is deceptive. The 18 canopy is probably overshadowing. It is a 19 wide-open area and then -- you can't see from 20 this angle (indicating). Down the alley, it is 21 really an open area. It's one block in from 22 Main Street, and this is the west side of 23 Springfield, and the -- the alleys on the west 24 side are -- almost all of them are open and 25 very regularly trafficked, so -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 116 1 And back to what you were saying, too, 2 Jennifer, we felt the same way about the -- 3 we're happy about the proximity of that garage 4 being back there, and our recommendation -- 5 Design Review's recommendation -- more of a 6 suggestion would be -- we'd like the idea of it 7 facing 7th Street in the potential hope that 8 there could be a house built on that front 9 because that's where it -- the garage would 10 have been located, you know, if there was a 11 structure on 7th Street facing -- but we're not 12 making that a condition because we do also see 13 the benefit of the property facing the alley 14 because it would enhance that usability of the 15 alley that we're pushing for. 16 A factor that we're -- came up in 17 discussion that I know isn't for this body is 18 about density, and that -- in Springfield we 19 need density, we need people there, and so 20 really even though it's not the owner's intent 21 at this time that that become a rental 22 property, it's likely because of the way that 23 it was put together that it could be a rental 24 property, and we had a discussion that -- that 25 would be a good consideration for economic Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 117 1 feasibility for people -- Springfield being 2 mixed use, that -- knowing that that's what 3 they're going to do, potentially, that that 4 property could be, you know, a -- a residential 5 structure. 6 So that consideration -- I don't know how 7 you weigh that in on your decision-making, 8 but -- a combination, meaning we want that 9 alley to be recognized as -- you know, used for 10 coming in and out of the back of the property, 11 which is the back of his property, or the 12 adjoining vacant lot property, and so the -- 13 but also knowing that that structure would be a 14 residential structure seen from 7th Street, 15 Main Street, and the alley, and then further 16 down with 6th Street. 17 And I -- there was one more thing about -- 18 oh, the windows. There's -- Joel had -- 19 staff's recommendation was that there be 20 windows facing south, and we actually don't 21 have an issue with that. That was specifically 22 mentioned, that we would like to see 23 landscaping. 24 Our concern, if the property faces 25 7th Street, would be the fencing, and we -- you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 118 1 know, how -- we'll come back and discuss that 2 when fencing is considered. 3 Thanks. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Next month. 5 MR. McEACHIN: Just to respond to one of 6 Brenda's comments, the Springfield zoning 7 overlay does allow garage apartments which can 8 be rented out, but the requirement is the owner 9 of the property has to live in the primary 10 residence. So that basically now is a single 11 lot. So the only way that he -- the only way 12 he can work that out is by living in that 13 primary residence. 14 Now, if they did, in the future, split the 15 lot again and go back, then -- again, it would 16 still have to have a primary residence to be 17 able to occupy that garage. 18 MS. BOYDSTON: And that was our -- our 19 discussion, that we want to have a bigger 20 discussion. And I talked to Joel some about 21 that too, is that I know it's not for this 22 body, but if we can look at the historic 23 district, the whole historic fabric of the 24 district, fencing, alley access -- but can you 25 put in some kind of condition -- say he does Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 119 1 split -- is he able to split the lot, sell 2 for -- that lot, or build a structure on that 3 7th Street facing [sic]? Is that a 4 possibility? 5 MR. McEACHIN: Yes. He would -- he 6 would -- right now, of course, it's been 7 combined to one piece of parcel of land. 8 Yes, he could go back and split that 9 property as long as he met the requirements of 10 the Riverside -- I'm sorry, the Springfield 11 zoning overlay as it relates to lot coverage 12 and -- and, you know, square footage and 13 frontage and so forth. He could do that. 14 And that garage apartment, I think at that 15 time could be lived in separately by -- it 16 would not be -- it could be rental at that 17 time, wouldn't it? 18 MR. TEAL: (Inaudible.) 19 MR. McEACHIN: If there's no longer a 20 primary residence on it -- there's no primary 21 residence on that lot and the lot now is not 22 associated with 26th -- 7th Street, would they 23 not be able to live in that -- 24 MR. TEAL: Correct. 25 Under the -- we're getting a little far Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 120 1 afield off of this application, but under the 2 zoning overlay, in order to have a garage 3 apartment, it has to be on the same property as 4 an owner-occupied private residence. And so if 5 the lots were split, there would no longer be 6 an owner-occupied private residence on that 7 lot, so, therefore, it could no longer be used 8 as a garage apartment, unless and until a -- 9 you know, somebody builds another primary 10 residence on the structure. 11 MR. McEACHIN: But could they not use that 12 as a primary structure? 13 MR. TEAL: Probably. 14 MS. BOYDSTON: And that's -- was the 15 discussion with Design Review was -- when 16 you're making a decision about a separate 17 structure on the back of a property with a 18 vacant lot on the front facing a very well 19 traveled street, then you need to consider what 20 could happen, what's able to happen in the 21 future, and so that's why we said we really -- 22 we prefer it facing 7th Street, and then we'd 23 have to look into how can you condition -- or 24 give some kind of influence on a structure if 25 it was to be separated -- I guess, then -- that Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 121 1 you would have plans to build a structure on 2 7th, which is our preference, by the way. 3 Thanks. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We're ready. 5 I guess -- we've closed the public hearing 6 as far as I know. 7 MR. TEAL: Mr. Chairman, if I could, is 8 this item going to be deferred until next 9 month? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 11 MR. TEAL: I would recommend that, as 12 opposed to closing the public hearing, you 13 continue it. That way you could have the 14 public hearing next month, but you don't have 15 to go through the same -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 17 MR. TEAL: -- advertising and all that. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we'll continue the 19 public hearing. 20 Thank you. 21 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. This also involves 22 Mr. Poole, so we'll just go straight into this 23 one as well. 24 At the last meeting, he was requesting a 25 landmark designation, and one of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 122 1 motivations for doing that -- a major 2 motivation for doing that is to take advantage 3 of the historic preservation property tax 4 exemption because this house is a charter 5 school, but it is owned by a for-profit 6 organization. 7 One big part of that property tax 8 exemption, since it does allow new 9 constructions and additions, is the 10 construction of a new gymnasium for the charter 11 school. And the reason that we bring it to you 12 as an OOA is that -- this sort of all came 13 together very quickly; his awareness of the 14 property tax exemption, trying to get an 15 application together, and he had already 16 proceeded, many months ago, to design a -- or 17 have a new gymnasium designed. 18 So we just want to present the design to 19 you, get your reactions to it, because he will 20 need to come back with a full COA on the -- on 21 the gymnasium, but I think we've -- 22 All right. This is a very significant 23 building, as I think I mentioned last month. 24 This is the back of the school (indicating). 25 The front of the school, where the eagles were Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 123 1 visible, is Lawton Avenue. That's Lawton 2 Avenue there. It's a primary entryway into the 3 school. 4 As you notice on the site plan that he's 5 provided, the -- right there (indicating) -- 6 the gymnasium is going to go right in here. 7 It's going to be a detached structure. It will 8 be 85 by 120 and about -- a little over 10,000 9 square feet. 10 The construction, as you will notice -- 11 see if I've got the plans over there. 12 It's pretty straightforward. It is a 13 prefab building. This is metal (indicating), 14 metal panels, drip panels. This is some sort 15 of a concrete block here. 16 Just go ahead and do the rest of the 17 elevations. 18 MS. MARTINAGE: (Displays elevations on 19 overhead projector.) 20 MR. McEACHIN: Go back one more. 21 MS. MARTINAGE: (Complies.) 22 MR. McEACHIN: There's where it's going to 23 be sitting, right here (indicating). 24 Can you go on over to the other school? 25 MS. MARTINAGE: (Complies.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 124 1 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. We had this same 2 situation come up with South Jacksonville 3 School, where they did the lofts, and they also 4 did a detached garage and separate apartments. 5 And if you look on the next slide, you can see 6 they're very contemporary. This was approved 7 by the National Park Service for federal tax 8 credit purposes because it was detached and it 9 was clearly distinctive from the old building. 10 So there is some -- some previous examples of 11 being able to go in and do something that is 12 definitely contemporary and differentiated from 13 the other building. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: Is there any indication 15 from the State whether they -- 16 MR. McEACHIN: On this particular 17 application? 18 MS. MANSFIELD. -- whether they would 19 approve this hangar-type building? 20 MR. McEACHIN: That communication has not 21 occurred. I understand he's going to be 22 seeking federal tax credits. He will have to 23 get that determination. 24 The reason I show you the South 25 Jacksonville is that it has happened before Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 125 1 and -- like I say, the National Park Service. 2 And it's on the same parcel of land. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Mr. Poole might be able 4 to answer these better, but is there any kind 5 of document that shows the relative heights of 6 these structures? 7 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Poole can answer that. 8 I know that the eave line of the gymnasium 9 is 25 feet. I'm not sure where the crown is. 10 MR. POOLE: Correct. I'm not sure about 11 the crown. I can get that information for you 12 guys, but I'm not sure about -- but the height 13 is -- it's like Joel said, it's about 26, so it 14 has to be -- I don't know, probably about 30, 15 but it's a fairly small slope on the roof, 16 so -- yeah, it's fairly narrow, so it's not 17 much higher than 30, meaning the -- the peak. 18 MR. ALLMAND: Right. It's a one and 19 twelve pitch, it looks like -- 20 MR. POOLE: Right. 21 MR. ALLMAND: -- and 85 feet wide. So 22 it's -- you're running about 42-and-a-half at 23 one and twelve. So, yes, it's probably not 24 quite -- 25 MR. POOLE: It's fairly narrow, right. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 126 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And so then the -- kind 2 of eave height of the main house -- or the 3 school building is -- so the eaves are similar 4 probably? Do you think it's -- I guess I'm 5 just wondering -- you know, it's a massive 6 structure compared to this -- you know, how 7 does it compare in heights? I certainly 8 wouldn't want to be seeing any of it from the 9 front. 10 MR. POOLE: No, you shouldn't see any of 11 it from the front, not -- it would not be 12 taller than the building if that's what you're 13 talking -- if that's what you're asking. Is it 14 taller than the actual building? 15 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yes. 16 MR. POOLE: No, I don't think it is, but I 17 don't know the actual height of the building, 18 but I -- no. I think that building is most 19 definitely a lot taller than 30 -- I would 20 say -- I would say 30 feet because I'm thinking 21 the max on the prefab building is about 30 feet 22 at peak, but you should not -- no, you should 23 not see it from that structure, from the front 24 of the structure. You can only see it from the 25 back. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 127 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Joel, my understanding of 2 the Secretary standards is that if this was an 3 addition or anything else to a historic 4 building, it would have to be distinguished 5 separately and distinctively from the original 6 building; is that correct? 7 MR. McEACHIN: That is correct, and I 8 think that was the situation with South Jax 9 Elementary School. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you say it was 11 designated or -- 12 MR. McEACHIN: No. Mr. Poole is in the 13 process of moving that forward, but before we 14 get too far down the road I wanted to have this 15 discussion as we begin to prepare the 16 nomination and evaluate the property tax 17 application. 18 And we will -- as Jennifer was saying, we 19 will share this information with the State and 20 their architectural review people and get their 21 reaction to it. 22 I understand -- this building is not 23 directly, physically tied except through 24 sidewalks and so forth to the building? 25 MR. POOLE: Right. That's correct. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 128 1 MR. McEACHIN: Okay. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So it's something that 3 could be removed at some point in time and not 4 impact the existing -- it's completely 5 separated and isolated. 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, gymnasiums are 7 often these big kind of -- 8 THE CHAIRMAN: They're tough to deal with. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- foreign shapes. I 10 know, so I -- you know, so I -- 11 MR. McEACHIN: It's what it is, I guess. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It is. You know, it's 13 obviously not the kind of building you -- you 14 know, big metal building like that, but at the 15 same time, you know, as long as I can't see it 16 and it's kind of tucked in behind -- and I know 17 it's a necessary feature of the school. I -- I 18 don't know. It's -- certainly scalewise we 19 can't do anything about it. Maybe surface 20 material, there may be something -- 21 MR. ALLMAND: I mean, there's a lot of 22 stuff you could do with a metal building. You 23 know, you could use, like, Cortex, you know, 24 panels, put stucco on the outside. You know, I 25 mean, there's a lot you could -- you can Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 129 1 basically make a metal building look however 2 you want. 3 MR. POOLE: But my question is, if it's 4 detached, it can be removed, then it doesn't 5 have to -- I guess it doesn't have to actually 6 resemble the actual features of the historical 7 building; is that -- because that building that 8 we just showed of the other school had none of 9 the features that were similar to the 10 historical school. 11 MR. McEACHIN: That is correct. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: This isn't in a historic 13 district, right? 14 MR. McEACHIN: No. This will be a local 15 landmark, that's correct, just as South Jax is. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: I'm sorry? 17 MR. McEACHIN: South Jax Elementary School 18 is also a local landmark as well. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: But it's in Panama Park, 20 right? It's not -- 21 MR. McEACHIN: Yes, in Panama Park. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: Right. 23 MR. McEACHIN: It's north of Springfield. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: It's a stand-alone? It's 25 not -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 130 1 MR. McEACHIN: Yes. 2 MS. MANSFIELD: -- surrounded by 3 additional -- 4 MR. McEACHIN: That's correct. 5 Were you looking -- Mr. Poole, were you 6 looking at a particular color on this panel -- 7 on the metal? 8 MR. POOLE: Yeah, we were actually -- 9 well, it's based on the contractor because 10 there's some -- there's certain colors that you 11 can use that hold -- that holds the heat or 12 whatever, but we were looking at that sage -- 13 that sand-brushed tan and that red brick. 14 Those are the colors, and that sandstone. And 15 if you look at the property, in the front of 16 the property, it's one color, and in the back 17 of the property it's a red brick. It's like 18 a -- it's a sandstone in the front. 19 If you can go back to that, Joel? 20 It's red in the back. It's like a 21 sandstone in the front. So it's going through 22 some renovations over time. So those are the 23 colors that we're actually looking to -- to 24 work with. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I think if you worked with Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 131 1 the colors of the existing building, I think 2 that will help blend it in, tie it in. I think 3 that would probably be the safe thing to do. 4 MR. POOLE: So like the sandstone? 5 Because that's what that is. It's like a 6 sandstone type color, yeah. 7 MR. THOMPSON: Right. It's probably the 8 closest -- 9 MS. MANSFIELD: A lighter color is 10 probably better to reflect the heat. 11 MR. POOLE: Yeah, that may be the -- that 12 could be the case. I have no idea. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: It is a separate building 14 and it's not surrounded by the district. And, 15 I mean, I would hope that you would want to put 16 some landscaping between it and the street 17 anyway, but it -- I would be very hesitant 18 about going forward and -- on it without first 19 talking to the State, though, because I think 20 it's unusual enough that you don't want to be 21 caught by surprise. 22 MR. McEACHIN: We'll do that. I'll -- 23 MR. POOLE: That will be the next move, 24 then. 25 MR. McEACHIN: I'll actually -- I think I Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 132 1 mentioned it to you earlier. 2 MR. POOLE: Correct. 3 MR. McEACHIN: I'll follow this up with 4 Mr. Wisley in Tallahassee and just tell him, 5 this is the situation, what you want to do, how 6 would you react to it as far as a federal tax 7 credit application? And if there is issues, 8 how is it different than South Jax? Because it 9 went to that office as well. 10 MR. POOLE: Okay. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: If I had my druthers, 12 instead of having stucco at the base, it would 13 be nice if they incorporated a brick that, you 14 know, matched the color of the existing school 15 as the base to further tie the two together, 16 you know, visually. But, I mean, that's -- 17 MR. POOLE: Yeah, but we're talking a 18 whole other expense there. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: I know. I know. 20 MR. POOLE: Yeah, so -- but like I said, 21 we'll look at it. I guess we run it through 22 the State. I guess that will be one of the 23 other questions, then we bring it back here. 24 MR. McEACHIN: Right. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we need to formally do Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 133 1 anything other than -- 2 MR. McEACHIN: This is nonbinding on 3 either the commission or Mr. Poole. 4 MS. MANSFIELD: If the State were to have 5 an issue with it, I don't think it would 6 (inaudible) that it's (inaudible) because it's 7 right on the street and it doesn't have any 8 openings or anything like a traditional 9 building would. 10 And I know you don't have a bunch of 11 windows with a gymnasium, but there just isn't 12 any kind of detail to engage that street side 13 that it's so close to. And I know that that's 14 traditional in the back of the house, but it's 15 got that huge lot area, the parking lot area to 16 buffer that back area from the street. 17 That would be my concern, and what I would 18 anticipate if they have issue with it, what the 19 issue might be. 20 MR. ALLMAND: I think that's a good point, 21 Jennifer, that, you know, it -- I mean, the 22 difference to me between, you know, what's 23 being proposed here and then the other one is 24 that the -- you know, the other one has kind of 25 a traditional-style architecture juxtaposed Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 134 1 with a very contemporary style of architecture. 2 And so you put those kind of two together and 3 that -- you know, that creates something, 4 whereas I think something like this is a very 5 traditional style of architecture with -- next 6 to a metal building that really doesn't have a 7 style. It's not necessarily modern. It's -- 8 MS. MANSFIELD: It's utilitarian. 9 MR. ALLMAND: It's kind of vanilla. 10 And so what does that do? And so, you 11 know, I think they're -- you know, they are 12 similar in that they are two separate things, 13 but they're different in -- in the fact that 14 what's being added here isn't necessarily 15 architecture other than the fact that it's just 16 a building. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, I agree with 18 that. I think the one thing South Jax 19 demonstrated in the photograph is they -- they 20 played it with the scale of that building, they 21 had a lot of ins and outs, so they broke the 22 scale down so it was similar to the school in 23 scale. 24 With the gym, though, I don't know how 25 much you can scale it down and -- so, you know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 135 1 it is a conundrum. That's why, you know, 2 some -- some treatment, maybe at the entries -- 3 maybe there could be some scale -- and they 4 don't have to be traditional necessarily, but 5 there may be some architectural features that 6 could be added at the access points to the 7 site, particularly, that just help integrate 8 that building more into the complex. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: And it's another one, like 10 the last time, where landscaping might help you 11 out too. I think -- 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, I'm not that 13 familiar with metal buildings. I don't know 14 what you can do with them on the -- 15 MR. ALLMAND: You might want to take a 16 look at, like, Cortex panels. It's -- it might 17 actually save you money rather than -- I don't 18 know if there's a security reason why you're 19 doing the CMU walls, but that might -- 20 MR. POOLE: Yeah, there's a security 21 reason. 22 MR. ALLMAND: Cortex panels are basically 23 a corrugated metal that you can -- it's like a 24 system where you can just attach to the -- or 25 the (inaudible) to the inside and do a direct Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 136 1 applied stucco to the outside. 2 MR. POOLE: Right, but that's Panama. 3 We're in the actual -- we're in Panama, so 4 most definitely that will be broken into, that 5 will be -- no. That totally would not be an 6 option. You know, that's why we didn't go full 7 metal, a full metal building, and that would 8 have been -- that would have been a little 9 least -- you know, least costly as well, but we 10 had to put that up to at least eight foot to 11 give us some type of security, you know, on 12 that building because you're still in Panama. 13 It's not -- 14 MS. MANSFIELD: So it's -- 15 MR. POOLE: -- it's not Riverside. 16 MS. MANSFIELD: Exposed CMU with no kind 17 of treatment on it is what's -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Stucco. 19 MR. POOLE: Right, right. 20 MS. SCHIFANELLA: No, it's painted. It's 21 elastomer paint. 22 MS. MANSFIELD: It says exposed CMU 23 exterior wall with elastomer paint and sealant 24 finish. In another couple of years I'm not 25 going to be able to read that. It's really Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 137 1 small. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: If you're like me, you're 3 right, you can't. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Get your magnifying 5 glass out. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: But that would be an 7 issue, I think, to at least consider stucco, 8 but maybe there's -- instead of a full brick, 9 maybe a veneer brick. That would be cheaper to 10 improve the looks of the building and make it 11 tie in with the brick building that is right 12 next to it because it is over the doors, so 13 it's really high. It's going to be really 14 prominent at street level. 15 MR. POOLE: What about stucco in it? 16 That's an option? 17 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, that would certainly 18 be better than CMU, but -- but I think David 19 had a better idea with making it some sort of 20 brick to tie in. 21 MR. POOLE: Well, it -- yeah. It all 22 looks the same, when you look at the stucco and 23 you look at the brick that you're putting on 24 there -- there's actually -- it's a thin brick 25 and the stucco is actually fairly similar, but Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 138 1 if that's a route we have to go with that being 2 an option for the stucco because the stucco 3 is -- it's a lot less expensive than going with 4 the veneer brick and it looks the same, there's 5 no difference, technically. 6 MR. THOMPSON: The other thing -- 7 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, it doesn't look the 8 same. 9 MR. POOLE: Well, once you paint it and 10 you put the paint over it, it doesn't look like 11 brick. It just looks like -- well, it looks 12 like brick, but -- you know, but painted. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: But if you put brick there, 14 you wouldn't paint it. 15 MS. MANSFIELD: You wouldn't paint it. 16 MR. POOLE: Well, you know, you paint the 17 brick as well. We're painting the brick in 18 Springfield, so, you know -- you know, it just 19 depends on what you decide to go with for the 20 color. But if you do paint it, you do -- we're 21 painting the brick in Springfield, so, 22 technically -- 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, in the historic 24 district you're not supposed to paint brick 25 that hasn't been painted yet. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 139 1 MR. POOLE: Oh, is that -- that's the 2 case? 3 MS. MANSFIELD: That could be a violation. 4 MR. POOLE: Okay. Well, then that won't 5 get painted, then. Well, let's just go with 6 the stucco so we don't have to go with the 7 brick. 8 MR. THOMPSON: The other option is to go 9 with a decorative block or a fractured block. 10 It has a little pattern to the outside, you 11 know, the same color as the building, but it 12 costs more than a standard block, but it -- I 13 don't know how -- 14 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't have to do 15 anything other than just clear seal it. 16 MR. THOMPSON: It's eight-inch blocks and 17 stack it and it's just got a little bit of a 18 texture on the outside. There's any number of 19 things you can get like that, so -- 20 MR. POOLE: So what are we looking for? 21 Are we looking for texture? Are we looking for 22 something similar to brick? What are we 23 looking for? 24 MR. THOMPSON: No. I think that -- you 25 know, if I was going to walk up to the building Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 140 1 and see a block base, I'd want it to be similar 2 in color to this building as a minimum. And 3 rather than just having standard block, which 4 is pretty utilitarian, if it has a little bit 5 of a texture to the outside, which you can -- 6 which you can get, I'd think there was an 7 effort to try to sort of coordinate that 8 structure with this building, at least be 9 sympathetic to this building, rather than -- 10 you know, I mean, that's just simply a 11 consideration besides brick and besides stucco. 12 MR. POOLE: Okay. 13 MR. THOMPSON: It's just a standard -- 14 MS. MANSFIELD: If you did the veneer 15 brick, you wouldn't have to paint it, so you 16 wouldn't have to maintain it other than to, you 17 know, keep it clean and make sure that the 18 joints are still tight, but you wouldn't have 19 to paint it and -- 20 MR. ALLMAND: Split face is, like, 21 virtually indestructible. I mean -- and, you 22 know, even if it -- like if it's dinged or 23 something, it -- you can't tell. I mean, 24 it's -- it's -- 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: It would probably Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 141 1 prevent the graffiti too because it's all bumpy 2 and so they won't get a smooth -- 3 MR. McEACHIN: Are we talking about a full 4 brick or are we talking about the tile brick, 5 like -- like he was -- 6 MR. POOLE: We're talking about another 7 type of block now. 8 MR. McEACHIN: Either one would be fine. 9 I think you've already checked on the tile 10 for your own house, haven't you? 11 MR. POOLE: Yeah. We checked on the tile 12 and the cost is different because we basically 13 tiled it, so -- the cost is different than 14 stucco and then -- you know, we'll look at the 15 block -- a block with some -- with some texture 16 to it. That's an option as well, but at the 17 end of the day -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: You can get a color too. 19 You could probably get it colored the same 20 color as the brick. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, and the block 22 may be a more appropriate blend to the rest of 23 the metal structure than the brick. It's such 24 a small-scale unit and I think the -- the block 25 is probably a better solution, kind of a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 142 1 textured or -- 2 MS. MANSFIELD: It's certainly better than 3 that plain CMU. 4 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. It will 5 inhibit -- 6 MR. McEACHIN: Do y'all have any 7 suggestions related to the selection of the 8 panel itself? Because this is going to be -- 9 this is going to be the roof color as well, 10 right? Whatever color is chosen. 11 MR. POOLE: Correct. The roof, right. 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The school is sort of a 13 soft -- 14 MR. McEACHIN: The school's a cream. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: It's like a yellow/beige 16 color. 17 MR. McEACHIN: Yeah, it's sort of a creamy 18 color. 19 MS. MANSFIELD: That sandstone would work 20 well because the red brick (inaudible), but I'm 21 thinking the lighter color might not be as bold 22 and -- 23 (Simultaneous speaking.) 24 MS. MANSFIELD: And they do say lighter 25 colors (inaudible). Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 143 1 MR. POOLE: That could be the case. 2 Matter of fact, it's probably on here. 3 MR. THOMPSON: Is this -- I'm getting into 4 an area that I shouldn't, but is this going to 5 be ventilated, this structure? 6 MR. POOLE: Yes. 7 MR. THOMPSON: Because I -- you know, I 8 don't know if it's going to be naturally 9 ventilated or if you're going to put in -- I 10 doubt you're going to put in an air 11 conditioner, right? 12 MR. POOLE: No. There be a unit in there 13 as well, air conditioning unit in the 14 gymnasium, yeah. 15 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Because there was no 16 reference to louvers or anything like that. 17 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, they've got four 18 different pads around the building. Are those 19 the air conditioning pads? 20 MR. POOLE: Correct. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: So two of them are right 22 on the street there. 23 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I don't know, I guess 24 I'm a little hesitant to tell him to pick a 25 color because it's such a different kind of Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 144 1 building. I can anticipate -- you know, there 2 may be some logo applied to it for the school 3 or something, you know, that -- that may drive 4 the color selection down the road that -- 5 because it's not the brick traditional 6 building, maybe it's more of a graphic, you 7 know, symbol for the school from the back and 8 so -- 9 MS. MANSFIELD: We usually don't get into 10 colors. 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah. 12 MS. MANSFIELD: Because that's the 13 (inaudible). 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not dictating a color 15 or anything. 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: What's the name of 17 the -- is the school coming on line or -- 18 MR. POOLE: It's on line. 19 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And do they have a 20 mascot or anything? 21 MR. POOLE: Yeah, the Eagles. 22 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Eagles? 23 MR. POOLE: Yeah. That's what's 24 interesting, yeah. 25 (Simultaneous speaking.) Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 145 1 THE CHAIRMAN: It's kind of obvious an 2 choice, wasn't it? 3 MR. POOLE: No, actually -- you know, the 4 school was in existence before we purchased the 5 building. It was just ironic that there were 6 eagles there. You know, so -- you know, it 7 was -- I guess it was meant to happen, so -- 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You have a great big 9 eagle on this building, I think, so -- 10 MR. ALLMAND: Yeah. I mean, is it 11 possible to, you know, not do metal panels 12 above there? 13 MR. POOLE: Not to do metal panels where? 14 MR. ALLMAND: I mean, above the CMU. I 15 mean, you've got your CMU there for security 16 and then above for the metal, but, I mean, 17 there might be some other -- 18 MR. POOLE: Other options? 19 MR. ALLMAND: -- options that you might 20 want to look at that are -- you know, that 21 might actually end up saving you money and 22 looking better at the same time. And depending 23 on -- I don't know -- who is your metal 24 building manufacturer? 25 MR. POOLE: Well, it's my contractor Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 146 1 that's handling all of this, so -- 2 MR. ALLMAND: Okay. 3 MR. POOLE: I wouldn't know, but I can 4 check with him, see if they have any other 5 options. 6 MR. ALLMAND: That might actually look -- 7 you know, get you further with, you know, 8 whatever regulatory agency you have to go 9 through rather than just that kind of metal 10 panel. There's actually a lot of different 11 choices, depending on the metal building 12 manufacturer that you went with. 13 MR. POOLE: Okay. 14 MR. ALLMAND: Something to think about. 15 MR. POOLE: Okay. Well, I'll follow up. 16 MR. ALLMAND: Okay. Something -- 17 MR. POOLE: Well -- and that's something I 18 didn't think about, but I can ask those 19 questions and see what happens, see what he 20 comes up with. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 22 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks. 23 MR. POOLE: Okay. 24 MS. MARTINAGE: Okay. Two very brief 25 design review items while we're waiting for Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 147 1 Lisa to come up to talk about the legislation. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 3 MS. MARTINAGE: This is a door that -- it 4 was approved with a condition that they do a 5 half, three-quarter or full-light door with 6 clear glass, no decorative feature, the 7 standard condition that we do. 8 He installed this door. Now, you can see 9 the frame -- the style of the door is 10 appropriate. It's a three-quarter light. It 11 is kind of a sandwiched-style door. The 12 outside is a clear glass panel with a 13 wrought-iron inset in between the glass and 14 then the interior glass is kind of -- some kind 15 of funky, texturized, frosted something. 16 I do not have the product information for 17 this particular door that he picked out; 18 however, he says it is a security door, which 19 the Springfield -- or even the Riverside design 20 regulations do allow for security doors. 21 Typically, that's been interpreted -- burglar 22 bars. In the past, it's always been a separate 23 security door on the outside of your main entry 24 door, but -- however, he was saying that this 25 is a security feature, that it's a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 148 1 security-rated door, which I can hopefully 2 verify if -- and he wants to keep it. 3 We've never been presented with something 4 like this, so we thought we would bring it to 5 you for your opinion before we pursue any -- 6 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I thought we just 7 uniformly didn't like those kind of patterned 8 light doors. 9 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, it's not your 10 traditional -- you know, it's not like a leaded 11 design or something like -- in the glass. It's 12 like a sandwich -- it's like if he had hung a 13 pretty wrought-iron panel on the inside of his 14 door. 15 MS. PAULL: Well, essentially what he -- 16 what the applicant was stating is that it's a 17 burglar bar sandwiched between two pieces of 18 glass built into the door. I actually had seen 19 these before and that's why I was familiar with 20 them. 21 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And is that really what 22 it is? 23 MS. MARTINAGE: I can get the product 24 information to verify that. 25 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Does it provide Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 149 1 security? 2 MS. PAULL: There are doors that -- that's 3 why she's trying to verify that with product 4 information. There are doors that have iron 5 features, but typically the ones that have iron 6 features that are supposed to just be a feature 7 are not sandwiched between pieces of glass. It 8 isn't -- 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- (inaudible) around 11 the locks so you can't reach -- I mean, to me 12 that doesn't look like a -- a security door. 13 MS. PAULL: That's what they're being 14 touted as, at least by different manufacturers 15 and whatnot, that it is a built-in burglar bar 16 system, essentially, or burglar door, security 17 door, whatever word you want to use. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, if it is a security 19 door, it looks a lot better than the cast iron, 20 grate-style doors that are allowed. 21 MS. MARTINAGE: And it does sort of 22 fulfill some of the intent of the clear glass 23 condition because it is clear glass on the 24 outside. It's not etched or -- but, I mean, 25 it's a completely new product to us, so -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 150 1 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I guess if you were to 2 come to the board and say, "I'm going to have a 3 wrought-iron sandwiched panel door to enhance 4 my security," I wouldn't approve that pattern. 5 You know, I'd approve sort of a simple 6 eight-light pattern or something that did the 7 same job that looked more -- to me, that looks 8 like these other doors that we just turn down 9 regularly, and so I -- 10 MS. MARTINAGE: Supposedly this matches 11 some of the interior features. Apparently he 12 has wrought-iron detailing throughout the 13 house. The security lights on either side of 14 the door will be a wrought-iron-style light or 15 have a metal appearance -- fixtures, so 16 supposedly it matches some of the detailing 17 that he's been using inside the home. 18 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I don't see the rest 19 of the house, but, I mean, one of the main 20 problems, like in Riverside/Avondale, with this 21 type of prefabricated door is that they tend to 22 be more of a folksily Victorian look, which 23 doesn't fit the majority of houses in that 24 district. It might be more of a Victorian 25 design. I can't -- Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 151 1 MS. MARTINAGE: This is a -- we didn't -- 2 I -- we didn't include the whole house picture 3 because we're trying -- because, I mean, it is 4 a potential violation, so we didn't want to -- 5 it's -- 6 THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest -- 7 MS. MARTINAGE: It's a two-story house 8 with a wrap-around porch on a corner lot, if 9 that helps. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: But it -- 11 (Simultaneous speaking.) 12 MS. MARTINAGE: Yes. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: The muntin pattern of the 14 lights adjacent to it would tell me that it's 15 probably a Queen Anne. I generally don't 16 associate wrought iron with Queen Anne. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I just don't -- yeah, 18 the door -- 19 MR. THOMPSON: It wouldn't be one of our 20 favorites. 21 MS. MARTINAGE: At least on a staff level, 22 I think he's only been before you once, but 23 he's -- we talk to him frequently. 24 MS. MANSFIELD: The frosted glass bothers 25 me more than the wrought iron. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 152 1 MS. MARTINAGE: I think that was some of 2 our concern as well. You know, if it was just 3 sandwiched between two pieces of glass, I think 4 it would have been a little bit more palatable 5 to us because then it looks like a -- curtains 6 on -- you know, you hang on the inside of your 7 house or a decorative feature you hung on the 8 inside of your door, you know, like people do, 9 but because it is kind of wavy, decorative, we 10 had some concerns about that. 11 MR. THOMPSON: If this was not called a 12 burglar door, what would the guidelines say? 13 Would they say this is unacceptable? 14 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, we -- based on the 15 standard way we've interpreted it, it would 16 be -- 17 MS. PAULL: It's a door -- through the 18 Chair, it's a door with decorative detailing. 19 We typically only approve -- well, in the 20 past, administratively, we only approve plain 21 glass doors without any lead details, without 22 any decorative detailing, without any etched 23 glass. In some cases -- at least for a front 24 door. In some cases, frosted glass has been 25 approved, but it's not our standard operating Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 153 1 procedure to approve something like that. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I mean, if you -- if 3 security is the issue, couldn't you just put 4 impact glass in the light? Nobody's going to 5 get into that, and so -- 6 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, supposedly he's 7 going to be putting a 6-foot wrought-iron fence 8 around the perimeter of the property anyway. 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I mean, I don't think 10 security justifies a design that you wouldn't 11 normally approve because there's other ways to 12 get security without putting all the -- 13 (Simultaneous speaking.) 14 MS. SHEPPARD: The thing that was unusual 15 about this design was that -- normally, when 16 we're dealing with decorative doors, you know, 17 the decorative detail is the glass, so it's 18 very evident from all angles. This is kind of 19 the effect of the sandwiched muntin. It's 20 like -- 21 You know, even in this picture -- I mean, 22 the -- the primary piece is plain glass that's 23 facing the street, so the glare and stuff -- 24 you have to see it straight on to really see 25 the detail beyond the glass, and that's what Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 154 1 made it a little confusing for us. 2 I mean, yes -- is it a decorative detail 3 that's, you know, associated with the door? 4 It's part of the door because it's sandwiched, 5 but is it as visible as what we normally say no 6 to on a regular basis or try to discourage? 7 You know, not so much because it doesn't -- you 8 know, it's behind that plain glass. 9 MS. MANSFIELD: This doesn't bother me as 10 much as the others that we see, but I'll tell 11 you that when I was doing my home renovations 12 and my builder wanted to put in one of those 13 sandwiched glass (inaudible) in my back door, 14 he was trying to sell it to me on the fact 15 that -- because of all that glass, it's a 16 security feature. So I'm not -- this could be 17 a special security door, but we definitely need 18 to verify that. 19 MS. MARTINAGE: Which -- if this is 20 something you guys are acceptable to, I can 21 definitely -- if it was like -- it would be a 22 condition of approval that -- you know, if 23 documentation is -- proved that this is 24 actually a security door, not just a 25 decorative, pretty feature. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 155 1 MS. SHEPPARD: We're having to make the 2 call on -- you know, if this is going to be -- 3 if we're going to determine that this is a 4 violation, then the only -- I mean, he may very 5 well want to come to the commission to try to 6 get -- well, he can't do that -- 7 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, he can, but it would 8 probably be administrative res judicata. 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 MS. SCHIFANELLA: The COA said a clear 11 light -- 12 MS. MARTINAGE: Clear light -- or clear 13 glass, no decorative etching, frosting or 14 leading. It's my -- the standard wording I 15 use, and I'm the one that wrote the report. 16 MR. THOMPSON: Is there literature that 17 qualifies this as a security door? In other 18 words -- 19 MS. MARTINAGE: I would have to obtain 20 that to -- it's -- 21 (Simultaneous speaking.) 22 MR. THOMPSON: You know, I did it because 23 it was secure. 24 MR. TEAL: Hang on. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's let Jason pipe in Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 156 1 here. 2 MR. TEAL: What we're getting at here is 3 that there's an exception under the COA 4 process, but it doesn't say "security door." 5 It says, "The installation of burglar bars on 6 windows and doorways." It shows an exception 7 for that, so the -- is that a burglar bar, 8 first of all? And it specifically says, 9 "installation on windows and doorways." That 10 implies that something is added to a window or 11 a doorway that serves the purpose of burglar 12 bars. I mean, I think that -- 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think it's doing 14 that. 15 MR. TEAL: Well -- but, I mean, I guess 16 it's not -- it's not adding it to -- it gets 17 back to your point about, you know, the 18 gymnasium could potentially be removed. Well, 19 burglar bars are seen as a temporary -- you 20 know, something that's affixed to -- you know, 21 and not drawing away -- I guess by their very 22 existence, they draw away from the historic, 23 you know, appearance of it, but I don't 24 think -- I think that gets beyond the intent of 25 this, which was an exception for burglar bars. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 157 1 I think that is more of a character-defining 2 feature that detracts from the historic nature 3 of the building itself. I don't know that it 4 would fit. If I had to make a determination, 5 does that qualify for this exception, I would 6 have to say no. That goes beyond the extent of 7 that exception. 8 MR. THOMPSON: Although I'd probably 9 rather see this than burglar bars. 10 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, exactly. 11 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Yeah, and burglar 12 bars -- 13 MR. THOMPSON: This is a more contemporary 14 burglar bar. 15 (Simultaneous speaking.) 16 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- (inaudible) issues 17 with burglar bars? Can you just -- I don't 18 think you can just -- 19 MS. SHEPPARD: Well, that's why this is 20 actually kind of an interesting take on that, 21 if it is truly marketed that way, because 22 you're not dealing with some of those security 23 issues as far as being able to get out because 24 it's part of the door itself, so it's not -- 25 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair -- or -- the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 158 1 general consensus that I've heard -- and I have 2 been trying to get that -- this so we could 3 potentially move on -- is that you are okay 4 with something similar to this, but maybe a 5 less decorative, ornate design or are you okay 6 with the design in this situation but in the 7 future you don't really want to be going with a 8 design? 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: We can go down the row. 10 I don't think that's a good solution to 11 security, personally. I think that's going to 12 open the door for other people wanting pattern 13 lights. I don't know if -- SPAR just left -- 14 if she wanted to make a comment on that, but 15 I -- you know, maybe you don't see it all that 16 much because in reality it's an oblique view 17 and you never see it and if you don't want to 18 deal with this particular case, that's 19 certainly a staff assessment based on how 20 visible. But when people come to you wanting 21 security, I would not -- I would not let this 22 be a standard for what's acceptable. I'm 23 not -- I don't like it. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: I would sooner have them 25 put in nine-sixteenths laminated glass, which Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 159 1 are -- you know, which is a hurricane impact 2 product. You can take a sledgehammer to it. 3 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You can shoot a cannon 4 out of it. Nobody's going to break that, and 5 it's probably less expensive than this 6 sandwiching of wrought iron and stuff. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: And even good tempered 9 glass is pretty tough. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. The pattern. I 11 mean, it's -- 12 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, even just 13 double-paned, that in itself, you know, takes 14 some effort to break it. 15 (Simultaneous speaking.) 16 MS. MANSFIELD: -- (inaudible) double-pane 17 tempered because of the size and the 18 (inaudible) -- 19 MS. MARTINAGE: Right. 20 MR. THOMPSON: I hate to ask this, but is 21 this already installed, so they're going to 22 have to come as a COA or -- 23 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, he's in violation of 24 his existing door COA approval. 25 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 160 1 MS. MARTINAGE: So -- 2 MS. SHEPPARD: Unless -- yeah, I mean, 3 unless you make a determination that because 4 it's, you know, plain on the outside that it 5 somehow meets that, but -- that's why it's 6 before you is that we were questioning that it 7 met what was originally approved. 8 MS. MANSFIELD: This is a heck of a lot 9 better than burglar bars. But, on the other 10 hand, that COA is pretty clearly written and -- 11 I mean, the etching on the inside. I mean, 12 clear is clear. 13 MS. SHEPPARD: Well, I guess my question 14 would be this: If we say this doesn't meet the 15 COA and he comes to you and -- I mean, it's -- 16 probably is going to be an administrative 17 res judicata issue, but I guess the -- the 18 thing that I would want to kind of -- for you 19 guys to consider is, are we going to tell him 20 no and then turn around and if somebody 21 proposed this on a next project allow it 22 because it's, you know, better in -- you know, 23 than a certain situation, it's not as bad as 24 the other thing, and then it's in character 25 with the style of the house? Because then Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 161 1 we're kind of in a difficult situation where we 2 gave this person a hard time and yet turned 3 around and through -- coming to the commission 4 -- 5 I mean, I can -- if you wanted to see 6 these type of doors come to you, that -- you 7 know, there might be certain situations where 8 it is approvable, then that's something that we 9 can certainly go forward with and it would be 10 on a case-by-case situation, but -- 11 MS. MANSFIELD: Personally -- 12 MR. THOMPSON: Well, we can't make -- I'm 13 sorry, go ahead. 14 MS. MANSFIELD: If it's a legitimate 15 security product and not just a sandwiched 16 pattern thing that he's trying to get away 17 with, then -- 18 MS. SCHIFANELLA: But, see, even if it is 19 a legitimate security product, is it one that 20 we want to -- there are other legitimate 21 security products that will meet the criteria 22 of the guidelines. 23 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, to me, if it had 24 clear glass instead of the opaque, then -- 25 assuming that that pattern matched the style of Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 162 1 the house -- and it seems to me that a 2 Victorian probably fits, whereas you wouldn't 3 put it on Arts and Crafts. You know, so it 4 would be dependent on the style of the house, 5 but it would -- that seems like it would 6 certainly be preferable than the burglar bar -- 7 standard burglar bars, which always have the 8 horizontal in the middle and a little bit of 9 curlicue to connect -- you know, to connect the 10 panels and stuff. It's -- 11 MS. SHEPPARD: They tend to obscure or -- 12 obscure the historic feature or detract from 13 it. 14 MS. MARTINAGE: So I'm hearing that if it 15 is a security-rated door, like if they can 16 provide documentation with an application, in 17 general, that -- depending on the house, the 18 property, the situation, location and all that 19 good stuff, it could be something that could be 20 seriously considered before the commission? 21 MS. MANSFIELD: I might be in the 22 minority. I sense I am. 23 MR. THOMPSON: I don't think we can decide 24 right now whether we're going to approve it or 25 not, right? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 163 1 MR. TEAL: Yeah, no. 2 MR. THOMPSON: It's just an opinion. 3 MR. TEAL: Well, you can't even consider 4 this. I mean, this is an item that is likely 5 to come before the commission, so don't talk 6 about the details of this particular door or 7 this particular thing. We're looking at 8 concepts. And I think the concept is, first of 9 all, does this fall within the definition, 10 quote-unquote, of burglar bars and is it 11 therefore exempt from having to get a COA? 12 That's the initial question, is -- if it falls 13 into that -- 14 (Simultaneous speaking.) 15 THE CHAIRMAN: -- (inaudible) that it's a 16 burglar bar because it's not something that can 17 be removed without totally destroying the door. 18 MR. TEAL: And the other issue is that -- 19 with regard to a product that is marketed as a 20 security feature, are there variations in that 21 type of product that could be deemed to be 22 acceptable? In other words, could somebody 23 come up with a design for metal inlay between 24 two panes of glass that could serve as an 25 appropriate treatment for a door, not -- not Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 164 1 getting into, you know, the other issues with 2 it, that, you know -- you know, the scroll work 3 of the metal itself, the inlaid wood, the 4 medallions on the corners, the -- you know, the 5 various features that may not be appropriate 6 for that particular type of structure. But 7 looking at it from a conceptual standpoint, 8 could you envision that there is a security 9 product that could be used -- or design, I 10 guess, that could be used for this that would 11 meet this particular exemption? 12 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, yes, because 13 any -- you know, security itself is not the 14 basis for the evaluation of what the proposed 15 product is. You know, if they're going to put 16 in a fence for security reasons, we still want 17 a certain kind of fence that's historically 18 appropriate. If they're going to put in a 19 security door, we still want a door that is 20 historically appropriate. If we have to 21 evaluate them on a case-by-case basis and 22 someone wants a sandwiched panel, then we look 23 at the pattern and we decide whether it's 24 appropriate to the structure or not. 25 MR. ALLMAND: Angela, is that something we Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 165 1 do or is that something staff can do? 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: That's up to -- you 3 know, staff usually let's us know when they 4 need -- 5 MR. TEAL: You know, again, I think the 6 problem, though, is that if -- if the 7 determination is made as to that type of 8 feature or security measure -- 9 MS. SCHIFANELLA: A door, it -- 10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 11 MR. TEAL: -- meets the definition of 12 "burglar bar." 13 MS. MANSFIELD: No. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: No. 15 MR. TEAL: Okay. That's the threshold 16 question because if it's a burglar bar, they 17 don't even need to come to the City because 18 it's exempt under 307.107. 19 MR. ALLMAND: I don't think that's a 20 burglar bar. 21 MR. TEAL: And that, I think, is the 22 threshold question for this guy, is -- he's not 23 exempt, so, therefore, he needs a COA. And 24 he's in violation of the one he had. The 25 question, then, I guess, is, you know, how you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 166 1 would handle this particular treatment. 2 MR. ALLMAND: And -- okay. So I don't 3 think it's a burglar bar. Conceptually, I 4 probably -- you know, if this were to come to 5 me, I probably wouldn't approve it as the 6 design and I think that I'm comfortable with 7 staff reviewing that. 8 MR. TEAL: I would like to point out -- I 9 was corrected that if it's a burglar bar, he 10 still has to get staff approval. It's one of 11 the, quote-unquote, routine alterations that 12 staff can approve. It wouldn't come to you 13 guys. 14 MS. SCHIFANELLA: You know, if there were 15 no issue of security involved in this thing and 16 it showed up in front of you, you'd go, "Hey, 17 that's in violation of the COA," and it 18 would -- you'd bring it before you. 19 And I think every door is a security 20 feature, just by its nature, to keep others out 21 and you decide. And so the degree to which it 22 provides security is up to the owner, but he 23 still has to meet the guidelines. 24 MS. BOYDSTON: Can I make a comment? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 167 1 (Ms. Boydston approaches the podium.) 2 MS. BOYDSTON: This whole issue of 3 security, the exception in Springfield, is 4 our -- something the Design Review Committee 5 wants addressed. We need to update our 6 overlay. It's -- does not address most of the 7 current situations over there, so I don't know 8 if that helps at all, but we would want to 9 find -- update soon to get the reference to 10 security -- burglar bars off. 11 It's only in Springfield, correct? 12 MS. MARTINAGE: No. 13 MS. BOYDSTON: Oh, it's Riverside too? 14 MS. MARTINAGE: It is Riverside too. 15 MS. BOYDSTON: Okay. Well, then the other 16 part was the height that the fence is, which is 17 a separate issue, but we -- we do want to 18 change the -- not just the perception, but the 19 application of concerns about security in 20 the -- in the design element part. 21 MS. MANSFIELD: Yeah, I would agree with 22 that. The burglar bars, to me, I think are a 23 blighting feature. 24 MS. BOYDSTON: They're blighting and they 25 were to address circumstances that, you know, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 168 1 don't exist today or shouldn't exist and it's 2 the perception of safety and there's other 3 elements. And for -- as much as I do not want 4 to go against this situation, it just -- our 5 Design Review would absolutely say no to that. 6 MS. MANSFIELD: You could have something 7 decorative, if you wanted decorative, to match 8 the inside of the house. And instead of 9 sandwiching in between the glass, mount it to 10 the inside of the (inaudible) -- 11 (Simultaneous speaking.) 12 MS. SHEPPARD: Well, that was our point, 13 though, because you're going to -- it's going 14 to look exactly like this if they do that, and 15 then -- and that's where the issue comes in. I 16 mean, you're right. And we tell people that -- 17 if they want to put in a stained-glass window, 18 it's like, well, no, you can't replace your 19 window with a stained-glass window, but if you 20 want to hang one inside your window where you 21 see it, that's fine. But it's going to look 22 like that if they were to take that approach. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: And that's acceptable 24 because it's a removable feature. 25 MS. SHEPPARD: And the outside -- you Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 169 1 know, the outside is what you're seeing. 2 MS. MARTINAGE: So my understanding is -- 3 definitely this is not a burglar bar feature -- 4 THE CHAIRMAN: It's not a burglar bar -- 5 MS. MARTINAGE: -- and that you guys are 6 not even crazy about the design if they were 7 brought before you as a product, you know, even 8 if it was a security-rated thing? 9 MR. TEAL: Don't answer that question. 10 MS. MARTINAGE: Well, I mean, I'm not 11 trying to do that. I'm -- 12 MR. TEAL: They cannot predispose. I 13 mean, this is a quasi-judicial -- they have to 14 be unbiased, they have to base their decision 15 on evidence received at a meeting in which it's 16 presented to them, so -- 17 MS. MARTINAGE: Right. 18 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I think Jason covered 19 that -- there may be a potential design that we 20 would approve. We just have to see it and look 21 at it. 22 MS. MARTINAGE: I'll just reread the 23 minutes and go from there with that. I'm just 24 try to make sure my notes are right because 25 this guy is going to argue with me when I speak Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 170 1 with him, so -- so hopefully we can -- it may 2 be coming before you again in a couple of 3 months. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. What else? 5 MS. PAULL: Through the Chair, just a 6 quick info thing. 7 In order to prevent what happened -- or in 8 an effort to prevent what had happened to two 9 applications this month with them not having 10 their signs properly posted and not having 11 evidence of it and applicants citing ignorance, 12 more or less, or that they weren't properly 13 notified, I've taken Chapter 307.106, 14 Section I, which discusses the proper 15 notification procedures, and outlined it in 16 bullet points. 17 And essentially what we're looking to do 18 is to cut these and tape them, paste them, 19 whatnot, to the back of a sign so when an 20 applicant gets them and they're putting them in 21 the ground, they'll see the directions on the 22 back, and it will say, needs to be posted for 23 14 days, needs to be posted by this date, and 24 it's on there so they can't complain or have 25 any unforeseen issues that they don't know Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 171 1 about or are unaware of. 2 MS. SCHIFANELLA: Just one comment. 3 To the benefit of staff, I don't know how 4 many COAs I've applied for. I have never 5 walked out of there without them saying, "Make 6 sure you put that up two weeks before the 7 meeting." I mean, you say it every time, even 8 to me. 9 MS. SHEPPARD: Well, they sign it. I 10 mean, there's -- they sign something that says 11 it's going to be up by a certain date. So, you 12 know, even if you had no idea what two weeks 13 before the meeting it [sic] was and what the 14 ordinance actually says, you're agreeing to put 15 it up by a date certain. 16 MS. PAULL: Well -- and through the Chair, 17 if they -- they sign it. It says, I hereby 18 swear or hereby aware -- and whether they read 19 it or not is not our problem. They're signing 20 it, they're acknowledging it, and -- this is 21 just in an -- in an additional effort to make 22 sure that the information is correctly there 23 because we've had a lot of people that I've 24 noticed that have posted them in the 25 right-of-way and you have to call your Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 172 1 applicant and let them know that it needs to be 2 posted on their property, so -- just an FYI. 3 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I think -- instead 4 of just saying it has to be on your property, I 5 think you need to clarify that that's not 6 between the sidewalk and the street because a 7 lot of people -- 8 MS. PAULL: It says "behind the sidewalk" 9 on here, "not obscured by landscaping or 10 fencing." 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. What else? 12 MS. SHEPPARD: You had three different 13 points when it comes to legislation -- pieces 14 of legislation that we're working on. I was 15 hoping, when we put this on the agenda, that 16 you would have wonderful drafts in front of 17 you. You do not have drafts in front of you, 18 so you don't have to look for them. 19 I can give you a brief overview of the 20 type of things that are going to be included in 21 these documents or the things that we're 22 looking to get approved through the pieces of 23 legislation. 24 Under the first one, mothballing, 25 obviously this is associated with our Condemned Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 173 1 Structures Committee and trying to address some 2 of the concerns coming out of that. The 3 emphasis is on alternatives to demolition and 4 full compliance with Chapter 518, which, you 5 know, limits you as far as, like, how long you 6 can have a building boarded, which is one of 7 the things that kind of causes problems in the 8 districts, and so we would basically be 9 providing -- or putting emphasis on looking at 10 other things other than demo, whether it's, you 11 know, shoring the building up and addressing it 12 through a -- the least intrusive means. 13 We're also including in this the idea 14 if -- or MCC wants to pursue demolition, that 15 it wouldn't be during -- how we've been 16 normally handling them, that it -- they would 17 be coming to us through a COA and we would be 18 evaluating it based on the demolition criteria 19 that's provided for us in the ordinance code. 20 If something comes down to an emergency 21 situation, which is something that does not 22 come to you, we are still saying that these 23 things, short of demolition, need to be put 24 into consideration. And if they're going to do 25 a structural report or analysis, that that is Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 174 1 something that's also shared with the 2 individual that's putting that together so they 3 can say, while, you know, demolition would, you 4 know, address this, these other things might 5 also address it. 6 And it's setting up the mothballing 7 process and the criteria that we would be 8 looking at for that. We're doing it through a 9 COA process. It would be -- you'd be applying 10 for mothballing through a COA. 11 We're providing for extensions for that 12 because a COA is good for five years. At the 13 end of that five-year period, you could apply 14 for a second mothballing COA, but you would 15 have to take additional measures if you do 16 that. So you're having to do kind of -- 17 starting that rehab -- each year you would have 18 to do something that was fairly substantial, 19 you know, replacing roofing with architectural 20 shingles or redoing all of the windows, so 21 you're -- baby steps towards the full rehab. 22 The second piece of legislation that's 23 mentioned talks about right-of-ways, but it 24 really goes beyond that. This was in response 25 to some concern about a lot of the utility Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 175 1 boxes that are being installed in the 2 neighborhoods and the size and the placement of 3 those. Those weren't really being reviewed. 4 It was determined that they do require review 5 if they're in the historic district. That 6 would trip the COA process, so we're clarifying 7 that in this ordinance. 8 We're also addressing how these structures 9 would be handled if they were placed in the 10 right-of-way and how they would be handled on 11 private property or public parks and things 12 like requiring that they be a certain color, 13 that they be limited to a certain height, 14 requiring landscaping. Those are the type of 15 things that are going into this. 16 And the overall emphasis is to try to 17 encourage the placement in less visible and 18 less obtrusive locations, like potentially 19 alleyways and some of the parks where 20 landscaping is more doable, and even 21 preferencing [sic] commercial-type spaces over 22 residential lots. 23 So that is another piece of legislation. 24 And the third piece, we've talked about 25 this on and off. It was basically to address Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 176 1 the list that's currently in the ordinance code 2 of things that we can do at the staff level. 3 This would be kind of reworking that a little 4 bit to set up a process for how we -- we would 5 have an in-house document that would be the 6 policy for what we can approve administratively 7 and what would come to the commission, and it 8 would set up how that policy gets put in place, 9 like if we wanted to make a change -- I don't 10 know, like a 5-by-5 shed, it's going to be 11 slightly visibility or something, then that 12 might be something you want to put on that 13 list, and we would have that discussion. It 14 would be shared with the neighborhoods and it 15 would be approved, you know, through a public 16 hearing type of process and then we would add 17 it to this list. 18 Instead of having to go back and add 19 something to the ordinance code, which is 20 through City Council and stuff, it would be 21 between you and staff keeping track of this in 22 a document. 23 So those are the three pieces and you 24 should definitely have a draft by the April 25 meeting. We should have a draft of the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 177 1 mothballing so we can have a Condemned 2 Structures Committee meeting before the next 3 commission meeting, and that would be another 4 opportunity to go over the actual draft of the 5 mothballing ordinance. 6 That's it. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? 8 MS. SCHIFANELLA: I was just going to 9 raise the possibility of -- since it is a 10 publicly, highly interested issue of the 11 mothballing legislation and there will be a lot 12 of discussion and five deferrals or something, 13 you know, this might be a meeting where we look 14 at the amount of information we need to deal 15 with. Perhaps we have a -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Special meeting. 17 MS. SCHIFANELLA: -- a special meeting 18 or -- 19 MS. SHEPPARD: My hope would be that we 20 would advertise -- especially to the list of 21 the concerned people that you're talking 22 about -- the subcommittee meeting, and so most 23 of the discussion would occur at that meeting. 24 So if there are some changes that -- or, you 25 know, tweaking that needs to be done or Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 178 1 recommendations, that that would be what we 2 would be bringing to the -- to the commission, 3 full commission. And I suppose after that 4 subcommittee, if -- if it's sounding like it's 5 going to be -- continued to be controversial as 6 we take it to the full committee, we can -- we 7 can look at doing a special meeting for it. 8 But if it -- if everyone is fairly happy with 9 the legislation, that it may -- they would have 10 that opportunity to really look at it and ask 11 questions of the subcommittee and maybe it will 12 be fairly easy for the full commission. 13 MS. MANSFIELD: That's a really good point 14 considering we had four deferrals tonight. 15 MS. SHEPPARD: The only other thing on 16 here I think that I was speaking to was 17 preservation awards, and I have officially 18 moved it to the 5th. And the committee met and 19 has a selection and I'm in the process of 20 notifying people -- the two follow-up 21 applications that we were dealing with -- or 22 nominations. I should have information on them 23 by the end of the week, and I will share those 24 with you via e-mail. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If there's no Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 179 1 further business to come before the commission, 2 we will adjourn the meeting. 3 (The above proceedings were adjourned at 4 6:25 p.m.) 5 - - - 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203 180 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA) ) 4 COUNTY OF DUVAL ) 5 I, Diane M. Tropia, Court Reporter, certify 6 that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a 7 true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 9 DATED this 12th day of April, 2011. 10 ___________________________ Diane M. Tropia 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203